Those damn neon signs!

[olddawg]

I play a lot of small(ish) bars nowadays and it seems like most of them love to put one or more neon signs near the stage. The damn things radiate into everything. Last night I wanted to try out my latest project guitar with a P90. It was unusable with any gain at all. On the break shorted the input to the amp and selected the gain channel. Stil a substantial buzz. A humbucker equipped guitar is barely tolerable. Forget using a Strat in a single pickup position to. Is there any way around this problem I don't know? It's too damn common and they will never turn the signs off!

[Chuck H]

Is the noise you get a AC cycle hum or a higher harmonic artifact like a buzz?

Ferrite bead on the guitars hot jack?

When I was playing out I went so far as to shield pickup cavities and pickup coils with copper, grounded. This does have a small negative effect on the tone of most pickups.

How many clubs have neon signs so close to the stage as to cause unbearable noise from sensitive transducers? It happens, but I don't remember it being a constant problem.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Had the same problem in a club some years back. One muso asked me if using an isolation transformer on the AC line to his gear would help. I didn't think it would, but we sourced a 1500-2000 VA unit and gave it a try anyway. Running his rig off it didn't help. BUT running the neon lamp transformer off the iso did! I sure wasn't expecting that. So that's the way he ran it from then on. Only problem arose when he lent the transformer to another musician, who forgot to take the iso back home with him after the show. Next day the club was out of business, shut down & locked up, that was the end of that.

So . . . if you have an iso transformer available give it a try unless the venue won't let you touch the neon power line at all. No promises, just this one anecdotal success story. And good luck!

[bob p]

I think you might need to build a Faraday cage.

Another option would be to just embrace the buzz...

[olddawg]

Had the same problem in a club some years back. One muso asked me if using an isolation transformer on the AC line to his gear would help. I didn't think it would, but we sourced a 1500-2000 VA unit and gave it a try anyway. Running his rig off it didn't help. BUT running the neon lamp transformer off the iso did! I sure wasn't expecting that. So that's the way he ran it from then on. Only problem arose when he lent the transformer to another musician, who forgot to take the iso back home with him after the show. Next day the club was out of business, shut down & locked up, that was the end of that.

So . . . if you have an iso transformer available give it a try unless the venue won't let you touch the neon power line at all. No promises, just this one anecdotal success story. And good luck!

Some clubs have 2 or 3 of the damn signs within 10 feet of the stage and even over the stage. The managers/owners don’t want you anywhere near them. Their power supplies are switched by a wall switch and it can be a bitch to even find the power supply. We did try running a thick extension cord from the other side of the room. I think the problem is the damn things simply radiating into the ambient more than a line ac problem. Funny.. while I was setting up another guitarist who plays there came up to me and said, “ You know the trick is you gotta face West!” He was obviously non technical and was serious. With a humbucker equipped instrument you just ride the volume control between songs and buzz gets buried if you used a boost with the band playing. It’s just annoying with a humbucker. It’s impossible with a single coil of any sort.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Some clubs have 2 or 3 of the damn signs within 10 feet of the stage and even over the stage. The managers/owners don’t want you anywhere near them. Their power supplies are switched by a wall switch and it can be a bitch to even find the power supply. We did try running a thick extension cord from the other side of the room. I think the problem is the damn things simply radiating into the ambient more than a line ac problem. Funny.. while I was setting up another guitarist who plays there came up to me and said, “ You know the trick is you gotta face West!” He was obviously non technical and was serious. With a humbucker equipped instrument you just ride the volume control between songs and buzz gets buried if you used a boost with the band playing. It’s just annoying with a humbucker. It’s impossible with a single coil of any sort.

In the club I mentioned, there was just one neon sign placed in a window behind the band, and it was plugged into an AC outlet so easy enough to deal with. Whether the problem was AC line pollution or fielding, running the neon supply off an iso transformer solved it. I am at a loss to say exactly how, and I could conjecture but for the moment will refrain. Naturally it's beyond the ability of a club owner or manager to purchase and install a nice poky iso transformer. Gosh that might cost $200. What, do you want to drive us out of business? We're having a hard enough time making ends meet anyway, selling booze at a 500% markup.

If the problem presents as a "fielding" situation then yes, you can orient the guitar in some particular direction to minimize the buzz field at the pickups. I'm not the only one who has put a piece of white gaffer tape on the floor and told the lead guitarist to line his neck up with the tape especially for overdriven solos. Anyone out there who has had the experience of playing at the Count Basie Theatre in Red Bank NJ will know what I mean. You will encounter a particularly noisy zone mid stage left. Just below the floorboards there's a junction box where all the power for the building passes through. It can be seen mounted to the ceiling of the catering room in the floor below, with one large conduit entering and two slightly smaller ones leaving. Can't imagine any smart folks would ever take it upon themselves to reroute the cables to a spot where they'll cause less trouble. Golly that might cost a couple grand! I know - there's no neon lights involved here. But in this case it's just a field problem, with the typical solutions. Guitar Johnny can take a walk downstage and play to the front row to avoid the field, or align his neck to the white tape if he insists on standing in front of his stage left rig, them's the only ways out of the buzz zone there.

[olddawg]

In the club I mentioned, there was just one neon sign placed in a window behind the band, and it was plugged into an AC outlet so easy enough to deal with. Whether the problem was AC line pollution or fielding, running the neon supply off an iso transformer solved it. I am at a loss to say exactly how, and I could conjecture but for the moment will refrain. Naturally it's beyond the ability of a club owner or manager to purchase and install a nice poky iso transformer. Gosh that might cost $200. What, do you want to drive us out of business? We're having a hard enough time making ends meet anyway, selling booze at a 500% markup.

If the problem presents as a "fielding" situation then yes, you can orient the guitar in some particular direction to minimize the buzz field at the pickups. I'm not the only one who has put a piece of white gaffer tape on the floor and told the lead guitarist to line his neck up with the tape especially for overdriven solos. Anyone out there who has had the experience of playing at the Count Basie Theatre in Red Bank NJ will know what I mean. You will encounter a particularly noisy zone mid stage left. Just below the floorboards there's a junction box where all the power for the building passes through. It can be seen mounted to the ceiling of the catering room in the floor below, with one large conduit entering and two slightly smaller ones leaving. Can't imagine any smart folks would ever take it upon themselves to reroute the cables to a spot where they'll cause less trouble. Golly that might cost a couple grand! I know - there's no neon lights involved here. But in this case it's just a field problem, with the typical solutions. Guitar Johnny can take a walk downstage and play to the front row to avoid the field, or align his neck to the white tape if he insists on standing in front of his stage left rig, them's the only ways out of the buzz zone there.

Yeah LG... in most situations you can find an axis “alignment” that will reduce the hum. Knowing it and doing it are 2 different things, lol! These are small stages. Same goes for finding the sweet spot for controlled feedback. I have a couple of iso transformers. I’ll see if I can try your trick next time at that club.

[stokes]

I dont think it has anything to do with the AC line itself.At our "club house" upstate,the electricity is powered by a generator.We have 4 neon signs powered by the generator.Our amps are run off a line from the electric supply in the house.Still get the noise thru the amps.Only a slight difference between my friends strat and my humbuckers.Only solution we came up with is to turn off the neons when we play.

[olddawg]

I dont think it has anything to do with the AC line itself.At our "club house" upstate,the electricity is powered by a generator.We have 4 neon signs powered by the generator.Our amps are run off a line from the electric supply in the house.Still get the noise thru the amps.Only a slight difference between my friends strat and my humbuckers.Only solution we came up with is to turn off the neons when we play.

I have some big outdoor "generator" gigs coming up. It's always a nightmare. I played a gig in downtown Las Vegas couple of years ago where they had huge pro contacted generators. The event provided the backline. 2 JCM800s, a JCM900, and two vintage SVTs. They blew them ALL up! I have UglyFest coming up. That's all on generators. You really have to be careful with the grounds.

[R.G.]

I did a couple of articles on gigs on generators for Premier Guitar a ways back. I think they still have them on line. OD is right - you have to be really careful with grounds. If it were me, I'd take a multimeter and a plug/outlet tester with me to verify 120Vac +/-10% before plugging an amp in. Well, actually, I wouldn't. I'd go to ebay and buy a used 1kW constant voltage transformer of the "harmonic neutralized" type to power all of my gear, and drive my own ground rod by the stage.

For radiated buzz, the recipe is some variant of
(1) Shield your guitar cavity with copper foil or tape, spot-soldered into a complete shell.
(2) Put some work in to getting IMMACULATE cables.
(3) Properly ground your guitar amp >> for RF pickup issues <<. This is different from grounding for low power line hum. Fluorescents and neons both spray out a burst of RF 120 times a second. The hum is a buzzy one. The RF is received by the antennas (that's you, your guitar, your cables, and your amps) and finds its way to an input pin, where it's AM detected down to blips at the 120Hz rate. Intercept it as RF, and you stop the rest.
(3a) Check your input and output jacks. If they're loose, RF crreps in. Take the in and out jacks off the chassis, buff the area under the jack bushing down to bare, shiny metal, then reinstall and tighten the bushing nuts properly. This one step can be magic sometimes.
(3b) If you have isolated input jacks, put a toothed ring terminal under the isolating input jack sleeve, then run a 10pF to 100pF >>ceramic<< disk capacitor from the cable/jack ground terminal to the ring terminal. This bleeds RF into the shield-y chassis.
(3c) Put a ferrite bead AND a 100R to 1K resistor in series with the signal lead over to the first stage, preferably right at the tube socket pin. The RF has an easy path to the shield through the bypass cap and a hard and dissipative one to the sensitive input.
(3d) When treating inputs, never forget that the reverb return is a high gain input too.

[The Dude]

Sure there's probably "that" bar owner, but...... I've always just turned off any neon lights and don't recall any club owners ever complaining.

[nosaj]

Sure there's probably "that" bar owner, but...... I've always just turned off any neon lights and don't recall any club owners ever complaining.

That's just because you know you like "The Dude" man..

nosaj

[olddawg]

Sure there's probably "that" bar owner, but...... I've always just turned off any neon lights and don't recall any club owners ever complaining.

Several of the bars I play actually have little signs telling you not to unplug them. I played a gig a while back where the "afternoon" band went long. We had 15 minutes to set up including the PA. Everything seemed ok but when we started playing we couldn't get through one song without the PA shutting down. The outlet they insisted us use had 80vac and a couple of neon signs on it. I finally had a friend run an extension cord from the other side of the building but it was an annoying cf. It was my birthday and embarrassed the crap out of me. I haven't been back to that place but my friends that still play there at least know what to do. It pisses me off. I'm usually the only one in the room that has a clue about anything technical and rarely have the time or inclination to deal with it. But if I don't check stuff out, even on my birthday everything typically goes to hell, lol! Nowadays I have an ACVM built into my pedal board. We use the same source for everything (with the same ground) so I know immediately what the AC line voltage is.

[R.G.]

Nowadays I have an ACVM built into my pedal board.

My fond congratulations on that. Great idea!!

[olddawg]

You can shield a cavity all day but a single coil pickup will still pick up radiated hum and buzz. Especially a P90. This particular one is a "dog ear" Mount and has a large steel back plate. It shields it better than a "soapbar" configuration. But I found out Saturday night it will still hum like a whore on meth in a bad room. There's one club I know that's even worse. The back wall of the stage is up against a large gas station with a thousand fluorescents and a power company stepdown transformer farm.