About amp "immediacy"

[Chuck H]

Electrons are sneaky. If you put one in one end of a wire it pops out the other end as if it had travelled at 0.6 times the speed of light but it hasn't because it's a different electron and they all look the same so you can't tell the difference. The first electron is still lazily drifting along and will arrive in its own good time.

That's my information too. Electrons don't move from one end of the wire to the other, per se. They act more like that hanging steel balls thingy on your doctors desk.

[g1]

Well, at least now I know why Sammy Hagar couldn't drive 55mph. He knew all along.

[uneumann]

OK - so now you claim that some sort of quantum electronics influences the audio amp circuit in my Fender Bassman ... this is really getting far out there and becoming a laughable discussion. We crossed a line here and I suspect there is no return. Pls refer us to a credible source about this erratic momentum and 35 mph phenomena. Until you can do that, I'm just left with no alternative but to treat this as "fake" theory that you're making up.

Just to be clear, since some people already brought up the physics of electron conduction in a wire. I get that, it's established physics. What I'm questioning is whether there are any references for how that (or whatever is being discussed) impacts an amp circuit - feedback loop of otherwise. Conduction physics (if that's what's being described) may matter in the most aggressive IC designs due to their feature scale, but it's a stretch beyond to say they affect amplifier circuits.

[Chuck H]

It's not about what IS. It's about confounding, diverting, chaos and discord At least a couple of posters on this thread absolutely love that $h!t.

[R.G.]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get some howls for the following blasphemy but here goes:
[...]
If the signal was truly light speed,
[...] you would see an instantaneous settling of the voltage
[...] We have been taught (conditioned) to believe
[...] More fuel for the fire?
[...] at 35mph!
[...] Is it possible that signals through a conduit are not really traveling at near light speed?
[...] current is limited to 35mph through a wire.
[...] Put another way, voltage is NOT a signal.
[...] part of the electrical science
[...] whole body of physics has to deal with
[...] high voltage fields and frequencies and how they relate to dimensional phasing. I hinted at some of these in a prior post when I referred to the relative nature of mass and speed.

OK, that burst got me up to speed. Guys, save your ammunition. I'm not sure what this is, but the burst of pseudoscientific agit-prop is pretty definitive.

It's either a closet True Believer with an axe to grind, a troll with a fascination for chaos, or a controversy bot, perhaps human assisted. They're not amenable to reason or education.

[Mike Sulzer]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get some howls for the following blasphemy but here goes:

Measure an operating amp circuit in live time that would normally require feedback, without the feedback. Have a switch that introduces feedback to the circuit and watch the meters. As expected, the voltage readings are erratic without feedback. Now switch in the feedback. If the signal was truly light speed, you would see an instantaneous settling of the voltage but it takes a second or so depending on the signal path. We have been taught (conditioned) to believe its the meter taking the time but even analog meters exhibit the same behavior. More fuel for the fire? The time is takes to settle the voltage is repeatable and matches the estimated time it would take at 35mph! This is just one of the many examples we witness in real life that we dismiss without further thought about it. Is it possible that signals through a conduit are not really traveling at near light speed? I'm going to introduce one more blasphemy, voltage potential is commuted at nearly light speed to all points connected to the source but current is limited to 35mph through a wire. Put another way, voltage is NOT a signal. This is part of the electrical science that some applied physics is experimenting with. That whole body of physics has to deal with high voltage fields and frequencies and how they relate to dimensional phasing. I hinted at some of these in a prior post when I referred to the relative nature of mass and speed.

Op amp circuit without feedback? It is kind off hard to keep the op ap out of saturation because of the high gain.

Did you know that you can put a step function into a line then measure how long it takes to propagate to the end? Or you can put in an rf sine wave and measure standing waves along the line to get the speed. Guess what? It is not 35 mph.

[loudthud]

One way Tektronix used to generate pulses with sub nanosecond fall times was to charge up a length of coax with 100V or so, then discharge the coax into a 50 Ohm load. A mercury wetted relay connected the coax to the load. The width of the pulse was determined by the length of the coax, a little less than 1 nanosecond per foot. The relay determined the rep rate, about 50Hz. The box with the relay was lunchbox size and the coax was in a suitcase sized box on the floor. They used really fat coax.

There is a formula used to estimate 3dB bandwidth from rise time (10%-90%).

Bandwidth = .35 / (risetime)
Tr of 1 nS ~ 350MHz

A 50W @ 4 Ohm amp puts out about 40V pk to pk. At 10V/uS that implies about 87KHz Bw.

[Justin Thomas]

Dang, R. G. ... I'm seriously wanting to change my signature now...

Justin

[The Dude]

OK, that burst got me up to speed. Guys, save your ammunition. I'm not sure what this is, but the burst of pseudoscientific agit-prop is pretty definitive.

It's either a closet True Believer with an axe to grind, a troll with a fascination for chaos, or a controversy bot, perhaps human assisted. They're not amenable to reason or education.

I have to agree with Justin. That is a damn fine piece of written word!

[yldouright]

Op amp circuit without feedback?

Not an op-amp, just an amp circuit that is operational. It's what happens when we use words to describe realities. Sorry for the confusion that caused, it was unintended. As for the other confusions, I refer you to Plato's hierarchy of knowledge: Ignorance (confusion) is preferred to believing what is wrong. What is the current of an RF wave and how does it differ from common current in a wire in its propagation? If the electrons are instantaneously pushed to the other end, how do we reconcile wire resistance with this belief system?

To all the other members who found their sensibilities offended by the introduction of this new pseudoscience, I refer you to this post to explain your reactions. I will also remind you that the same term was directed at Albert Einstein when his miracle year papers were circulated to the academic establishment.

[Justin Thomas]

Huh. I also see he listed three options. So maybe we have one of each...

Jusrin

[Malcolm Irving]

By the way 35 mph is a 'bit out'. The drift velocity of electrons in a 2mm diameter copper wire carrying 1 amp is 0.00005 mph.

[Dave H]

Did you know that you can put a step function into a line then measure how long it takes to propagate to the end? Or you can put in an rf sine wave and measure standing waves along the line to get the speed. Guess what? It is not 35 mph.

I tried that once with a whole reel (100m) of RG58, propagation delay was a few hundred nano seconds. If it had been 35mph I could have timed it with a watch.

Op amps are comparators without feedback but the voltages are perfectly stable if you disconnect the feedback on a Bassman or similar amp.

[Enzo]

But again, that confuses electrons and current. Your signal delay is nanoseconds, but the electrons in the circuit are not moving from one end to another.

[Dave H]

But again, that confuses electrons and current. Your signal delay is nanoseconds, but the electrons in the circuit are not moving from one end to another.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. If you look at the spec sheet for RG58 coax it says the "Velocity Ratio" is 0.66, that is the speed of signal propagation is 0.66 the speed of light. Electrons can't even manage 35mph. I see above that they only drift along at 0.00005mph but I'm sure they are zipping along much faster than that at random, but their average speed along the wire is only 0.00005mph.

@Yldouright what do you think happens to the electrons if it's AC across the wire not DC?