Why do guitar amps never have the design considerations of hi-fi speakers?

[Dolmetscher007]

Ha... some of you guys are really... fun. :-)

My "m.o."... not actually here to learn... been playing 25 years and still don't know why...

We all know that tone can be hard to read when it's all in print, but I do kinda have to ask... is it somehow part of some of you guys' goal to make new people kinda not really want to ask questions? I'm a software engineer, so believe me... I know all about Googling to find the answer to things. I research the living daylights out of everything before I open myself up to... the internet, with a question. I don't feel like I'm asking off-the-wall questions.

[The Dude]

I didn't see your questions as off-the-wall. You'll find this is a pretty friendly place if you stick around. We recently had some unwanted guests/trolls invade the forum that put everyone on high alert, so please excuse the apprehension. Hopefully, you're not from the same group.

[eschertron]

Ha... some of you guys are really... fun. :-)

My "m.o."... not actually here to learn... been playing 25 years and still don't know why...

We all know that tone can be hard to read when it's all in print, but I do kinda have to ask... is it somehow part of some of you guys' goal to make new people kinda not really want to ask questions? I'm a software engineer, so believe me... I know all about Googling to find the answer to things. I research the living daylights out of everything before I open myself up to... the internet, with a question. I don't feel like I'm asking off-the-wall questions.

Michael, as a sort of roundabout way to not answer your question about the ambience of MEF, let me say I've been reading and posting on this forum for over 5 years and I'm still a relative newbie here. Just today I've had a couple technical/scientific heavyweights dress me down because of the way I phrased some posts, leaving specific technical details out that allowed for misinterpretation. My bad. My reaction today to that, though, is different than it would have been 5 years ago because I know a bit about the tone used by many posters here.

So. The question. You ask about 'guitar amps' and 'hi-fi speakers'. Apples and oranges. Actually, apples and carts. The early guitar amplifiers were simply amplifiers marketed to performing musicians. Not much different than amplifiers with built-in radio tuners, and others. Not essentially guitar, and not essentially hi-fi. All equipment in common use was "medium rare" at best, not "high" anything. The guitar amps were lightweight for portability, and and had interface for things to plug in. The interface allowed for proper impedance matching and gain adjustment, but that was about it. Fender's early Bandmaster amps were targeting a niche as a mixer/PA as much as a guitar amp. Fender followed that model into the late 60s, until dedicated sound reinforcement equipment became commonplace in a house/church/garage band setting.
Early guitar amp speakers? Probably the cheapest full-range speakers that could be sourced. If were to argue the point, in the early days, neither 'guitar amps' nor 'hi-fi' speakers existed. They both evolved out of a need to fill a specific niche, both with their origins in the beginning of the first-world's 'techno-gadget' craze. Lots of disposable cash to buy electronic stuff in the 50s/60s/70s and beyond. Guitar amps never used hi-fi speakers because hi-fi was evolving separate from musical instrument amps. That does not necessarily hold for bass, keyboard, or vocal amps as you know.

And as you pointed out with the film nostalgia, once the listening public's ears became accustomed to the sound of guitars through guitar amps with guitar amp speakers anything different sounded "less good". What we hear from the good ol' days is the archetypal guitar sound. Why mess with it? (Not to say plenty haven't. They have, but the normative reaction hasn't been positive). Does any of this mesh well with what others have been saying?

[Dolmetscher007]

We recently had some unwanted guests/trolls invade the forum that put everyone on high alert, so please excuse the apprehension. Hopefully, you're not from the same group.

I heard from a couple of other members of this forum that there was some sort of troll'opolooza on these forums recently. I have been a member of https://homerecording.com/bbs/, https://www.soundonsound.com/forum, and probably 20 other woodworking, electronics, food/cooking, home brewing, and who knows what else... and I've never seen a Troll invasion. I know that sometimes forums get a little weird, and some people are kind of sharp and pushy, while some people are maybe too sensitive, and the flames start, and folks get personal, and things go bad on that thread. This happens especially on "relationship" type forums. Once, about 13-14 years ago, I had broken up with a girlfriend, regretted it, wanted her back, she wasn't having it... I was crushed... woe woe woe was me, et cetera. So I found some "How to be a man" website. Now... THAT forums was a shit show. Everyone one there was either a wounded frightened rabbit, or some 2x4 wielding bitter boy looking to "tell it like it is" to all the sad guys. I didn't just walk... I ran away from that forum.

But what does a Troll invasion look like? Did they just pick fights and start shit verbally? Or did they like actually do back-end penetration/hacking and genuinely try to mess stuff up?

[Dolmetscher007]

Does any of this mesh well with what others have been saying?

Totally. I hear ya on all fronts. When I asked the question originally, I had a really good idea that there was no way that the guitar amp industry just didn't bother with things like tweeters and crossovers. I imagined that things are the way they are for a good reason. It just wasn't obvious what those reasons were. Some decisions are made to keep costs down, some are for power efficiency, safety, portability, lowest possible circuit noise, etc etc. It had not occurred to me that an electric guitar doesn't have a tweeter or sub with crossovers, because the guitar itself just simply doesn't really do much in those really high, and really low frequency bands. So I definitely had my perspective broadened there. That is awesome.

I also wasn't thinking of guitar amplifiers as "tone coloring" devices. I mean... obviously they are. Overdrive and distortion aren't something that the guitar string or pickup is doing. So, it makes perfect sense that a guitar amp is not JUST a device to make a signal stronger i.e. louder. It filters and colors the sound probably to a great degree... and God bless them. Have you ever turned up a high-head room >30-50 Watt amp on a clean channel, and played a rich full G chord through a buttery humbucker... man... I don't know anyone that doesn't have to grin at least a little bit when they do that.

I am very excited about learning more about building a tube amp. An AC30 is $1,077, a Fender 65 Twin Reverb is $1,449, an Orange Rocker 32 is $1,099, a Marshall JVM205C is $1,999.99, and a Mesa/Boogie Lone Star Standard os $2,249. I am very interested in seeing how much the actual components cost to make an amp with similar specs. Not... because I think these amps are over-priced, or because I think that a couple of DVDs and a few dozen YouTube videos makes me an amp designer, or anything like that. I am just curious how much the bit costs. My Dad always said that if you can buy a new Chevrolet for $20,000, or you could buy each of the parts to build one yourself for about $200,000. I wonder if guitar amplifiers are similar.

[eschertron]

My Dad always said that if you can buy a new Chevrolet for $20,000, or you could buy each of the parts to build one yourself for about $200,000. I wonder if guitar amplifiers are similar.

Well, yes and no. The current offerings shipped into the USA from offshore are much cheaper than an amp you could make, but they are also basically disposable items, like a phone or a toaster. You can make a kit (there are several vendors each with a variety of models, many clones of or similar to the amps you mentioned) that is substantially cheaper than a brand new amp or vintage restoration. And any hand-wired amp is a good candidate for lasting 50 years, like the hand-wired vintage amps of yore. So there's value in that. But add in your learning curve time and build time, the kit amp will cost every bit as much as the $2k amp of your dreams. And that's not including any special tools you will want to buy on your tone quest.

[nosaj]

Well, yes and no. The current offerings shipped into the USA from offshore are much cheaper than an amp you could make, but they are also basically disposable items, like a phone or a toaster. You can make a kit (there are several vendors each with a variety of models, many clones of or similar to the amps you mentioned) that is substantially cheaper than a brand new amp or vintage restoration. And any hand-wired amp is a good candidate for lasting 50 years, like the hand-wired vintage amps of yore. So there's value in that. But add in your learning curve time and build time, the kit amp will cost every bit as much as the $2k amp of your dreams. And that's not including any special tools you will want to buy on your tone quest.

Just look at it as paying for your education. Start small with your first build, even though a champ is simplistic . Even if your not a fan of the champ, it takes on a new meaning after you've built it and played your first notes. To have an excellent sounding amplifier doesn't require spending a lot of money either. If your willing to hunt you can find organs people get rid of or want hauled to the dump. These are where I get my cheap parts for building some of the amps I want to hear what they sound like.

nosaj

[Dolmetscher007]

Just look at it as paying for your education. Start small with your first build, even though a champ is simplistic . Even if your not a fan of the champ, it takes on a new meaning after you've built it and played your first notes. To have an excellent sounding amplifier doesn't require spending a lot of money either. If your willing to hunt you can find organs people get rid of or want hauled to the dump. These are where I get my cheap parts for building some of the amps I want to hear what they sound like.

nosaj

Definitely!!! I would pay $4K to learn how to build a $1,200 amp. My end goal is not anything like selling boutique amps. I am 40 years old, and I have already tried to "Make it" in the music business in several bands. I've gone $40,000 in credit card debt trying to follow my "recording studio dreams." I've bought esoteric Gibsons, Martins, Fenders, you name it... and if there is one thing I've learned... some people have business sense, and have what it takes to fashion a living out of their craft. I am going to stay in my lane in my boring cubical job with a 401(k), medical, and dental... and leave the entrepreneur to someone else. I just really would like to build a Single-Ended Class A amp, and a Push-Pull Class AB, and tinker around with that makes which one sound like what. I will probably also try a lot of goofy shit that ends up sucking hard, just because I wanted to see if I could do it... like... I dunno... a 5-channel amp with an EQ and reverb for each channel... or something all bloated like that... just to see what it sounds like, and end up taking it all apart to make 3-4 other more sensible amps.

I may snap out of it, and just decide that buying amps made by actual professionals is the way to go. But for the time being, I just know if I brought home a brand new "new-amp-smell" Vox AC30, I'm sure it would sound great, but I would feel... like "it" beat me.

Do any of you guys ever feel that way? Like... since you got into amp design and building... does the idea of playing or buying a big-named classic titan amp just... not feel anywhere near as awesome as it did back when you knew nothing and were flipping through Guitar Magazines?

[Enzo]

Let us worry about any troll invasions elsewhere and stick to amplifiers, at least in this area.

[nosaj]

Definitely!!! I would pay $4K to learn how to build a $1,200 amp. My end goal is not anything like selling boutique amps. I am 40 years old, and I have already tried to "Make it" in the music business in several bands. I've gone $40,000 in credit card debt trying to follow my "recording studio dreams." I've bought esoteric Gibsons, Martins, Fenders, you name it... and if there is one thing I've learned... some people have business sense, and have what it takes to fashion a living out of their craft. I am going to stay in my lane in my boring cubical job with a 401(k), medical, and dental... and leave the entrepreneur to someone else. I just really would like to build a Single-Ended Class A amp, and a Push-Pull Class AB, and tinker around with that makes which one sound like what. I will probably also try a lot of goofy shit that ends up sucking hard, just because I wanted to see if I could do it... like... I dunno... a 5-channel amp with an EQ and reverb for each channel... or something all bloated like that... just to see what it sounds like, and end up taking it all apart to make 3-4 other more sensible amps.

I may snap out of it, and just decide that buying amps made by actual professionals is the way to go. But for the time being, I just know if I brought home a brand new "new-amp-smell" Vox AC30, I'm sure it would sound great, but I would feel... like "it" beat me.

Do any of you guys ever feel that way? Like... since you got into amp design and building... does the idea of playing or buying a big-named classic titan amp just... not feel anywhere near as awesome as it did back when you knew nothing and were flipping through Guitar Magazines?

No I just like working on them, I really love opening up an old one and seeing how things were done. Artistic chaos.
I started by trying to do the champ on an eyelet board but got so frustrated with it, I ended up going true point to point. going that route helped me understand the schematic better and how things connect(in a way that a layout does not.)

nosaj

Do you have soldering skills? If not, you should consider building a pedal first.(Reason being low voltage, gets your feet wet without spending much to determine if your heart is in it Start small then move up..just like software programming. You don't start by writing a major complex piece of software. You start small with the building blocks that help you to move up and build even more complex things.

[J M Fahey]

I just really would like to build a Single-Ended Class A amp, and a Push-Pull Class AB, and tinker around with that makes which one sound like what.

Please do.
FWIW my first Guitar amp was a Gibson GA5 ... a shameless copy of a Champ, the second was a Bassman 50 , both straight out of Jack Darrīs book (which I suggest you read).

The first one point to point on terminal strips; the second one on eyeletted board made with a bench press I bought specially to be able to do things "the way Fender did".

Stilll faithfully working like 49 years ago, applying eyelet terminals to speaker cones and frames, and now and then on simple boards for quick speaker crossovers , supplies, you-name-it .

My best investment so far.

So start climbing the ladder step by step ... you can reach real high if you go on.

If you want to play it safe, Ted Weber or Hoffman kits are good and inexpensive and Ceriatone ones excellent, sometimes better than originals

[Dolmetscher007]

Do you have soldering skills? If not, you should consider building a pedal first.(Reason being low voltage, gets your feet wet without spending much to determine if your heart is in it Start small then move up..just like software programming. You don't start by writing a major complex piece of software. You start small with the building blocks that help you to move up and build even more complex things.

A pedal is a GREAT idea. I definitely have been eyeballing some of the StewMac pedal kits. To answer your question... I have soldered a half-dozen or so strat pickguards in my entire life. I did not have the propper tools (cheapest hobby soldering iron ever sold), and zero technique. I'd never even watched another person solder something. This was all way pre-YouTube. Now I have a relatively higher-grade soldering iron: Weller WES51 Analog Soldering Station, and I have some rosin flux, one of those little brass tip-scrubby things in a container, some rosin flux core soldering wire, and I have YouTube, which has proven invaluable for learning things like soldering.

Judging by the sheer number of times it gets brought up, I am starting to get the feeling that soldering is a higher-level skiill than I initially thought. I remember when I was learning to weld; I just kind thought you squeeze a trigger and... it... welds. And then I got schooled on that shit. I am still a C- with a Tig welder, and an F with a stick welder. So... if soldering is anything like that, I will def. want to build a dozen smaller projects first. If you have any solid suggestions for pedals, I'd be all ears. I looked at the StewMac pedal kits, because they are a one-stop-shop, but for all I know, they are not so hot.

...both straight out of Jack Darrīs book (which I suggest you read).

I just put, "Electric Guitar Amplifier Handbook," by Jack Darr in my Amazon cart. I see that he has a dozen or so other books, so I wanted to make sure that this is the one you are talking about before I order it.

I bought this book already. "Tube Guitar Amplifiers Volume 1: How Tubes & Amps Work," by Igor S. Popovich. The author is this Croatian guy that lives in Australia, and seems to be deeply knowledgeable in all things Tube. He also has a ridiculously extensive DVD catalog for sale on all of this stuff where he builds a small tube guitar amp, a medium amp, and a large 100W mega amp. You can build along etc.

The book towers over my heard with physics. The first chapter is a dense pool of kneck-deep mental mollasses to wade through. I am still so inexperienced, I cannot tell how much of it I can "skip for now, and come back to as you move FWD." So I am just trying to really learn it all in a dry, facts-only way. It's frustrating as hell without having some frame of reference to see WHY all these principles are what they are within the framework of a guitar amp. But... what can you do? If it were piss easy, what good would that be?

If you want to play it safe, Ted Weber or Hoffman kits are good and inexpensive and Ceriatone ones excellent, sometimes better than originals

I am going to check these out. It might be a much stronger move for me to buy a kit first. My biggest problem with amp kits, and the ONLY reason why I haven't already ordered one from StewMac, is that the StewMac kits come with the amp enclosure, the speaker, and all that jazz. I am a HUGE woodworker, furniture designer, and in general, I just love the physical design of amps. I don't want to build a Fender knock-off that costs the same as a Fender amp, AND even looks just like one. I feel like it's a waste of money to buy one of those kits, and toss all the enclosure stuff, build a new one, and... ya know what I mean? I'd be looking for a kit that is just chasis and components. I'd even like to buy my own switches, input jacks, etc. Hell... I'd pay good money for a very specific parts list, a schematic, and step-by-step instructions, and I can source all the stuff myself.

Does anything like that exist, to your knowledge?

Thanks guys! You've all been really helpful and awesome!

[pdf64]

Please do.
FWIW my first Guitar amp was a Gibson GA5 ... the second one on eyeletted board made with a bench press I bought specially to be able to do things "the way Fender did".
Stilll faithfully working like 49 years...If you want to play it safe, Ted Weber or Hoffman kits are good and inexpensive and Ceriatone ones excellent, sometimes better than originals

Surely you are using a proper insulation board substrate to mount the eyelets on, rather than the awful black compressed card that is still being sold for Fender copies ?
I suspect that the black card was an improvised material, was never intended for high voltage electrical insulation.
It always has caused occasional problems, and is still doing so, as Fender based kits and builds are still using it, to be just like a real Fender.

[J M Fahey]

If you have any solid suggestions for pedals, I'd be all ears. I looked at the StewMac pedal kits, because they are a one-stop-shop, but for all I know, they are not so hot.

As first project, built a single transistor booster, such as Electro Harmonix LPB1 : no ICs, can be built in a variety of ways, from PCB to perfboard to terminals to "abastract sculpture", it uses a single transistor which is biased so you get to measure different voltages ... whatīs not to like?
Then a couple classic ones such as MXR Distortion+ , then complex Distortion, graphic or parametric EQ, Tremolo, Reverb (spring and IC based), Phasers, eventually Flanger and Chorus.

That alone will keep youbusy for years.

In parallel, some Tube amps, starting with Champ.

And some SS stuff, from a Ruby to a 10/15W practice amp, to a battery powered street busker to a powered monitor (where you can use woofers, tweeters and crossovers ) for portable PA use, amplify your MP3/Phone or Notebook/PC to 1000 mode 500 effect Digital pedalboartd ... the Sky is the limit.

But go step by step.

The Weber, Hoffman, Ceriatone kits and most others can be bought as chassis only, you provide your own cabinet.


I just put, "Electric Guitar Amplifier Handbook," by Jack Darr in my Amazon cart. I see that he has a dozen or so other books, so I wanted to make sure that this is the one you are talking about before I order it.

I bought this book already. "Tube Guitar Amplifiers Volume 1: How Tubes & Amps Work," by Igor S. Popovich. The author is this Croatian guy that lives in Australia, and seems to be deeply knowledgeable in all things Tube. He also has a ridiculously extensive DVD catalog for sale on all of this stuff where he builds a small tube guitar amp, a medium amp, and a large 100W mega amp. You can build along etc.

The book towers over my heard with physics. The first chapter is a dense pool of kneck-deep mental mollasses to wade through. I am still so inexperienced, I cannot tell how much of it I can "skip for now, and come back to as you move FWD." So I am just trying to really learn it all in a dry, facts-only way. It's frustrating as hell without having some frame of reference to see WHY all these principles are what they are within the framework of a guitar amp. But... what can you do? If it were piss easy, what good would that be?



I am going to check these out. It might be a much stronger move for me to buy a kit first. My biggest problem with amp kits, and the ONLY reason why I haven't already ordered one from StewMac, is that the StewMac kits come with the amp enclosure, the speaker, and all that jazz. I am a HUGE woodworker, furniture designer, and in general, I just love the physical design of amps. I don't want to build a Fender knock-off that costs the same as a Fender amp, AND even looks just like one. I feel like it's a waste of money to buy one of those kits, and toss all the enclosure stuff, build a new one, and... ya know what I mean? I'd be looking for a kit that is just chasis and components. I'd even like to buy my own switches, input jacks, etc. Hell... I'd pay good money for a very specific parts list, a schematic, and step-by-step instructions, and I can source all the stuff myself.

Does anything like that exist, to your knowledge?

Thanks guys! You've all been really helpful and awesome!

[soundmasterg]

I just put, "Electric Guitar Amplifier Handbook," by Jack Darr in my Amazon cart. I see that he has a dozen or so other books, so I wanted to make sure that this is the one you are talking about before I order it.

That is the correct one yes, and you can order it because it is nice to have a physical copy of the book. It is also available for free here >> http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm and there is a ton more great stuff available at that link for free. Other books to get are Merlin's books and website http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/ Kevin O'Connor's books and website/kits https://www.londonpower.com/ Gerald Weber's books are ok but also have some mistakes and hyperbole, but you can get those at www.tubesandmore.com among other places. A really good book is the Dave Funk Tube Amp Workbook, but it is out of print, though there may still be some floating around. It has full size Fender schematics which makes it a great resource just for that, but it is also written in a simple way that helps you understand the basics.

Greg