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George Benson Fender Amps

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  • #1

    George Benson Fender Amps

    Friends:

    Some time ago, I opened a post titled Favorite Jazz Amp. Recently, I sent a link of that discussion to a friend. He followed up by asking me to look at the "George Benson" line of amps from Fender. One is the GB Hot Rod Deluxe and more recently, the GB Fender Twin Reverb.

    In his promo videos for the amp, Benson discusses the additional headroom that these amps provide. After some digging around, I believe the only (electrical) difference between a regular Twin and the Benson models is V1. The Benson model uses a 12AY7 in place of the standard 12AX7. If I am not mistaken, the 12AY7 has half the gain of a 12AX7. So of course, you have a lower level signal going to the remainder of the amp - and perhaps this adds to a cleaner sound? The Benson TR also uses Jensen Tornado Neodymium speakers and is build using a Pine cabinet. Otherwise, I would assume everything else is the same (compared to a regular Twin).

    Here is the kicker - Benson talks about using a very small level of Vibrato. So he is in the Vibrato channel - which has a 12AX7 at the front end!!! So if he was looking for headroom, why not put the 12AY7 on that channel as well?

    I was looking at the '64 Vibroverb and the more recent Fender Twin Custom 15 - both using a 15" speaker which might be more to the liking of Jazz players. Perhaps either of those amps with a tube swap might give you a similar overall sound?

    Any ideas or comments on this?

    Thanks in advance!

    Tom
    It's not just an amp, it's an adventure!
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Originally posted by TomCarlos View Post
    ... The Benson TR also uses Jensen Tornado Neodymium speakers and is build using a Pine cabinet.
    Just a comment on the neo Jensen. I have one and I find it super clean - almost hifi clean.
    I'd vote for that alone making a big difference in tone and perceived headroom.
    “If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.”
    -Alan K. Simpson, U.S. Senator, Wyoming, 1979-97

    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

    https://sites.google.com/site/stringsandfrets/

    Comment

    • #3
      On the matter of what George thinks of the amp... There's a good chance that any changes to the normal channel were done by techs listening to George and what he was asking for. How George ended up using the amp could definitely be a different matter. Georges comments on the amp are what he could summon that was a positive thing to say in order to maintain his endorsement and/or fulfill his obligation. I'm pretty sure you could plug George into ANY amp that was even vaguely suitable for jazz and he'd futz for couple minutes, find a tone and just kill it playing his ass off. Just sayin'.

      In that light the GB Twin Reverb is just another offering, for better or worse. If anyone is seeking "George Benson tone" I don't even know that I would recommend a specific amp or suggest that an endorsement deal on his part is even indicative of what he plays through on a regular basis or in a recording studio.
      "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

      "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

      "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
      You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

      Comment

      • #4
        Since when has clean headroom been an issue with even the regular Fender Twin?
        "I took a photo of my ohm meter... It didn't help." Enzo 8/20/22

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by The Dude View Post
          Since when has clean headroom been an issue with even the regular Fender Twin?
          +1!!!

          Artists, big and small. are notorious for "thinking" they understand the building blocks of tone. In fact they only stumble upon what works for themselves by trial and error. But ego's speak a different language

          EDIT: That isn't to say that these pro's don't manage to find good tone. They certainly do. I'm just saying that their interpretation of how they got there can't really be used literally much of the time and certainly can't be taken seriously by tone seekers pro or amateur.
          "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

          "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

          "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
          You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

          Comment

          • #6
            The "Working Man" tone is in there somewhere... I mean, assuming my Bassman 100 through a 2x12" counts as the same as a TR Normal channel on 10... It wasn't that loud. I mean, the guys downstairs quit partying until 3 every night after a few rounds of Rush tributes, but they never called the cops.

            Justin
            "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
            "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
            "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by Justin Thomas View Post
              The "Working Man" tone is in there somewhere... I mean, assuming my Bassman 100 through a 2x12" counts as the same as a TR Normal channel on 10... It wasn't that loud. I mean, the guys downstairs quit partying until 3 every night after a few rounds of Rush tributes, but they never called the cops.

              Justin
              You're so convinced that you have "that" tone that you've mentioned it twice (just to my reckoning ). So I'm convinced that you have it. But I'm curious... Would that be the rhythm tone, the lead tone, or both? Further, live or studio? I'm a big Alex fan and I'm interested.
              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

              Comment

              • #8
                There was a place in east Portland that sold some amp parts on the internet. They were a little hard to get in touch with for a while, then it was said the guy went on tour as George's amp tech. Anyone remember this?
                WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personnel.
                REMEMBER: Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school !

                Comment

                • #9
                  I won't say I have "it," but my main point is that the "headroom" of Twin Reverbs is greatly exaggerated. "My Twin is clean to 10!" "Then you have your tone controls on 1 or the damn thing's broken!" I think if I played an LP instead of a Tele, I could get a lot closer. I don't have his fingers either.

                  I'm thinking the original studio here. First, rumor has it he used a dimed TR on that album. Second, you can definitely hear a difference on all of the later live recordings. You know - Master Volume Buzz. Definitely a harsher, rawer sound. Nothing wrong with that, just not the same. And of course, none of that "try to keep it to 90dB, guys" crapola.

                  You're probably a better guitar player than me, too. Neil Young is my um... Guitar Technique Advisor. But I don't know where you'll find an assortment of TRs to max out til you get one that "works." But I do have a spare tranny aet someone gave me.

                  Justin
                  "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
                  "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
                  "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Thanks for the replies.

                    We all know that celebrity endorsements (paid) can be skewed. For those who have technical expertise (or even limited expertise), we have our own take on this. There are numerous combinations of guitars, tubes, speakers, settings, etc that contribute to a "sound." Going back to my original question, the intent was to ask "if you swap out the 12AX7 tube, can you get an overall output that is less distorted (thus clean). The implication of the 12AX7 was that higher gain leads to a potentially distorted signal before going to the output stage.

                    The Benson model adds another $250 on top of the '65 Twin Reissue. So you would need to account for speakers, the cabinet wood, and cooler looking tolex. Otherwise, it appears to be a very similar Twin.
                    It's not just an amp, it's an adventure!

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      I don't think the ad copy necessarily lines up with what George had to say.
                      It mentions the speakers and headroom (backing up what uneumann said above) and then says something about the 12AY giving more 'clarity' and 'complex midrange' for the normal channel.
                      They may have asked him to mention both and he just got it jumbled around.
                      Originally posted by Enzo
                      I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


                      ​

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TomCarlos View Post
                        Going back to my original question, the intent was to ask "if you swap out the 12AX7 tube, can you get an overall output that is less distorted (thus clean). The implication of the 12AX7 was that higher gain leads to a potentially distorted signal before going to the output stage.
                        I never met a BF topography amp that would distort the preamp before the power amp starts to clip unless it had a master volume. And...

                        All things being equal I like the tonal difference a 12ay7 tube makes plugged into a typical guitar amp 12ax7 first position. That is, the circuit values aren't adjusted for the different tube. My perception would be similar to the print regarding clarity and midrange. Maybe a nicer top end with more punch in the good frequencies and less in the harsher sounding ones? I've described it before as "more tubey sounding"
                        "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                        "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                        "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                        You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          I'll stand by my statement that a regular twin has plenty of clean headroom. That said, it might be helpful to see and actual schematic of the GB Twin for comparison. Otherwise, we are just guessing. Small changes can make a big difference.
                          "I took a photo of my ohm meter... It didn't help." Enzo 8/20/22

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
                            All things being equal I like the tonal difference a 12ay7 tube makes plugged into a typical guitar amp 12ax7 first position. That is, the circuit values aren't adjusted for the different tube.
                            The 12AY7 is one of the few subs that works really well in an AX7 circuit without changes, unlike the AT & AU, which are not really at their best when plugged in an AX7 socket.

                            Justin
                            "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
                            "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
                            "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Hooray Justin,
                              About time someone made this point specifically.

                              The AT needs to run at x2 the current of a AX and has significantly more grid current

                              The AU has a bad rep with the hifi guys because they run it a 2 or 3 mA when it needs 8 to 10mA to shine.

                              As for those "experts" who say (in print even) you can just drop a AX into the 12DW7 socket in an old Ampeg - what rot.

                              One of those thumbs up is mine - the others must be from guys who understand their tubes a bit.

                              Cheers,
                              Ian

                              Comment

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