Effects loop. why?

[Sea Chief]

.. doesn't take a genius to picture an amplifier with the transformer pictured as a triangle and using the 2,4,8,16,or even 32 to balance the load like a seesaw.

nosaj

maybe not a genius, but certainly someone who knows physics to a certain degree.. you see I have no idea what you are talking about even here: tiangles? loads? how can a speaker be a load if anything other than in kg, its weight-?

Its like my car: well, a similarity in stuff staring at me in the face with a neccessity of a significant depth of knowledge to understand what they are for. My golf. Its biggest dial, right in front of me, is a rev counter. Why the heck is this here? what is it for? why would I need it? if its a hot hatch whereby 'revs' were something to consider whilst driving (even so.. Id no idea what can be ascertained from seeing the needle at any stage of the dial, relative to the way you might drive thye car as a result of this knowledge- perplexing) I could conceive -very loosely- some feint reason for it being there, pride of place. But in a 1.4 golf?

[nosaj]

maybe not a genius, but certainly someone who knows physics to a certain degree.. you see I have no idea what you are talking about even here: tiangles? loads? how can a speaker be a load if anything other than in kg, its weight-?

Its like my car: well, a similarity in stuff staring at me in the face with a neccessity of a significant depth of knowledge to understand what they are for. My golf. Its biggest dial, right in front of me, is a rev counter. Why the heck is this here? what is it for? why would I need it? if its a hot hatch whereby 'revs' were something to consider whilst driving (even so.. Id no idea what can be ascertained from seeing the needle at any stage of the dial, relative to the way you might drive thye car as a result of this knowledge- perplexing) I could conceive -very loosely- some feint reason for it being there, pride of place. But in a 1.4 golf?

Everyone knows physics to some degree even children can look at a seesaw an tell it ain't gonna work if you have a fat kid on one side of the seesaw and a skinny kid on the other side. The skinny kid will burnout trying to move the fat kid.. Skinny Kid =amplifier Fat Kid=wrong impedance speaker.



nosaj

[Chuck H]

Knowing the gear rules rote is fine. That's easily 80% of guitar players. Just go to the gear page or Les Paul forums some time and see. We tease about the gear forums all the time because there are members on those forums that sometimes pontificate on tech issues like they know what they're talking about, but obviously don't. We, here, do. For the most part. So that's the company you're in right now. We say it's important because we believe it is. And for what we do, crafting circuits for specific sounds, it is. But that's the end of it. For 80% of players it's not important at all. Some of the fault on this matter should be owned by the tone hounds out there that learn just enough tech to get into trouble. I think they do this because they're on an ever evolving quest for the tone that'll make them sound like they want to. When in reality they should learn to play in a way that sounds like they want to. Choosing good sounding gear and knowing enough about how to use it isn't that hard. There are exceptions. Like the Quadreverb manual and others that seem to think the user must understand the units function as much as it's operation. This is just another quirk like those perpetrated by the tone hounds. Except in this case it's just nerdiness. The instructions reflect what's important to the makers of the Quadreverb, not the user of the Quadreverb. Most players do fine ignoring the tech, tone hound and nerd aspects of the guitar playing genre. It's not a conspiracy. Just a mish mash of personality types in an unregulated collection.

[Sea Chief]

Hopefully your wife didn't have to explain the ins and outs of certain body parts to you either even though they involve physics.
Everyone knows physics to some degree even children can look at a seesaw an tell it ain't gonna work if you have a fat kid on one side of the seesaw and a skinny kid on the other side. The skinny kid will burnout trying to move the fat kid.. Skinny Kid =amplifier Fat Kid=wrong impedance speaker.


K.I.S.S. and you use your brain. I'm really quite perplexed how you made it this far in life unless someone was holding your hand the whole time.
nosaj

My point is the skinny kid = amplifier (fine, a kid understands).. fat kid = speaker (fine, a kid understands) but you add the all important word IMPEDANCE, which then propells the sentence from easy > to difficult. From understood > to not understood.

So your analogy shoots itself in the foot. And your comments about me verge on the rude too. Try using humour, as I did, instead of resorting to mild insults. My limitations I make plain for all to see, the thread is about my (or rather mine, & the bigger picture me as a good proportion of normal players..) limitations. Making sharp personal comments though just to emphasise my limitations, instead of some info or help, doesn't show -you- up in such a bright light nosaj.

[nosaj]

My point is the skinny kid = amplifier (fine, a kid understands).. fat kid = speaker (fine, a kid understands) but you add the all important word IMPEDANCE, which then propells the sentence from easy > to difficult. From understood > to not understood.

So your analogy shoots itself in the foot. And your comments about me verge on the rude too. Try using humour, as I did, instead of resorting to mild insults. My limitations I make plain for all to see, the thread is about my (or rather mine, & the bigger picture me as a good proportion of normal players..) limitations. Making sharp personal comments though just to emphasise my limitations, instead of some info or help, doesn't show -you- up in such a bright light nosaj.

Removed for your benefit and the forum....


Then get a dictionary...Do what my parents did....I don't understand something go look it up and if you run across something in what your looking up look that up too. Be curious BE Willing to LEARN. You tell us time and time again how you don't want to do this and don't want to do that to get this/ You have to learn the basics first. Like a child does. Be willing to do that and not lean on your crutch of insanity an you could go far....or not.
Insult or not depends on your take if your wife didn't have to explain then great you unknowingly know some physics just as if I hit you with a twig versus a bat.. In the big picture things are all relative. Everything builds upon another to make complex things. Small bricks can make a big complex building. You have to adjust your focus and look and think.

nosaj

[Enzo]

And now perhaps you can see why a certain individual went on my ignore list a LONG time ago.

[Helmholtz]

My point is the skinny kid = amplifier (fine, a kid understands).. fat kid = speaker (fine, a kid understands) but you add the all important word IMPEDANCE, which then propells the sentence from easy > to difficult. From understood > to not understood.

It's a useful analogy. Impedance means AC load.

Adjusting the amp's output impedance to the speaker load impedance would mean repositioning the skinny kid along its lever until you get balance. Electrically this is accomplished by choosing the appropriate OT speaker tap.

[Sea Chief]

[QUOTE=Helmholtz;530390]It's a useful analogy. Impedance means AC load.

Not useful if AC load means nothing to me though. I understand load only in terms of weight. I understand -your- analogy of the see-saw, in basic terms, but trying to envisage electrical current in terms of a weight substitute.. to me just seems impossible.

I have tried to understand, looked up the meaning of impedance many times.. but it just doesn't click.

[Helmholtz]

[QUOTE=Sea Chief;530393]

It's a useful analogy. Impedance means AC load.

Not useful if AC load means nothing to me though. I understand load only in terms of weight. I understand -your- analogy of the see-saw, in basic terms, but trying to envisage electrical current in terms of a weight substitute.. to me just seems impossible.

I have tried to understand, looked up the meaning of impedance many times.. but it just doesn't click.

I a general sense a load is everything that loads a source of power (e.g. a motor, a battery or an amplifier) and converts the received power to light, heat, motion, sound etc.
In this sense a light bulb is a load to the mains.
Impedance is to AC what resistance is to DC: It provides a path for the current and receives/converts power from the power source (e.g. the amp) it is connected to.

[Bloomfield]

The load refers to the fact that the amplifier is doing work in moving the speaker cone and thus the air. In order for this to happen efficiently the impedances need to be in the correct ratio such that the amplifier can operate properly to move the load.

Maybe it would help to think of the output transformer like the gearbox in your car. The engine has a range of operation where it can do work efficiently. If you would pay attention to the rev counter you would know for example that the car will not go if you try to start from idle, say 700rpm, in fifth gear. Nor will it work if you try to go 80mph in first, because the engine will have likely blown up by then. From driving you must have noticed that the engine performs best in a certain range of rpm and that you use the gears to keep it in that range at various speeds. If the engine is working too hard you shift to a lower gear in order to present a lesser load (ie. impedance) to the engine. Similarly if you give it full throttle in neutral, you will likely blow the engine up from having no load. Same thing if you crank up the amp with no speaker connected.

[Chuck H]

The load refers to the fact that the amplifier is doing work in moving the speaker cone and thus the air. In order for this to happen efficiently the impedances need to be in the correct ratio such that the amplifier can operate properly to move the load.

Maybe it would help to think of the output transformer like the gearbox in your car. The engine has a range of operation where it can do work efficiently. If you would pay attention to the rev counter you would know for example that the car will not go if you try to start from idle, say 700rpm, in fifth gear. Nor will it work if you try to go 80mph in first, because the engine will have likely blown up by then. From driving you must have noticed that the engine performs best in a certain range of rpm and that you use the gears to keep it in that range at various speeds. If the engine is working too hard you shift to a lower gear in order to present a lesser load (ie. impedance) to the engine. Similarly if you give it full throttle in neutral, you will likely blow the engine up from having no load. Same thing if you crank up the amp with no speaker connected.

That's a good analogy But I'll wager Sea Chief drives an automatic

[Sea Chief]

Ok Helmholtz.. I get a rough idea of what your talking about, thanks for your explanation. But alas it just resolutely remains a rough idea only (it just never comes into focus! I don't think it will ever either!). I don't think I can basically understand why the transformer wouldn't just put out a fixed X so all speakers can just bloody well connect to it, not faff about with different types: why we should have to interact with the pesky lazy ass xfmr sod & do some of its bloody work for it.. is how my mind sees it.

Appreciate the efforts to explain, Chuck & yourself etc.

If I can't moan about techy stuff here where do I do it? staring at my wife's teets & talk to them (when she's asleep of course).. well do I?

[Dave H]

I have tried to understand, looked up the meaning of impedance many times.. but it just doesn't click.

You could think of impedance as resistance to Alternating Current (AC)

Edit: I see Helmholtz has already said that

[HaroldBrooks]

Hi Chuck- thanks for the informative reply, I understand most of it then- but as to pro eg's I'd be at a loss being not much of an effects guy in fact: I think of only one PRO effect I find almost essential, for him & his character/ tone.. & that would be JMarr & a chorus. But via a big 40w fender amp like a vibroverb or twin.. which have no effects loops. So Im at a bit of a loss as to whether I've heard, or would know how to tell, of any recorded gtr > amp using this config. Acdc? no. LZ surely no. Smiths no. Stones no. Bc all use vintage amps, that sound the best, & these had no effects loops afaik. So there never -used- to be them, so I wonder whether they are of any true use then.

It seems i need a pHd to play my 'leccy gtr now then.. all this info & techy stuff, tube sag, compression (another facet i havent a clue about either) finickity bias setting.. drives me fkn mad.. & thats just the amp: then the gtr with tone varying with volume knob inconsistancy/ the xyz of push-pull pots, coil splitting mumbo.. no wonder I just reach for my Taylor 95% of the time!!

I've always thought you need a fair balance ( whatever that is !) between knowing music tech and playing straight away. You need both, but depending on the player and what you do, more or less will be just right for you and the setting. I never dismiss what anyone else feels is absolutely necessary to get their sound and to play correctly, it may be just that... But then again, you owe it to yourself to have a perfunctory knowledge of what's out there tech wise, and revisit anything new (and the old but seriously revised) once in a while so you don't get behind with genuine useful innovations that might help you to sound and play better, IMHO.

My story is like Rip Van Winkle, in that I turned off music and performing (a big mistake) for a couple of decades to concentrate on making a buck elsewhere.

When I finally woke up, there were all these wonderful digital boxes, amps and innovations. The truth be told, some of them were NOT so wonderful, and were still the same repackaged junk I had no use for back in the day. Oh well, so it goes.

I do like digital pedal reverbs, and I use one in my digital rack, an with my tube amps post speaker. I never liked the way some effects sounded in a distorted, or even semi distorted chain, as they can materially alter the sound of the effect, and perhaps limit it's use. I use a lexicon MX400, an Eleven Rack, and a real amp with a pedal rig in my performances. A bit too much sometimes, but I can and do just pan to the amp mostly on some covers, like Led Zeppllin, but on Pink Floyd songs, digital all the way to emulate a real studio sound. Tame Impala uses reverb before distortion in some recordings, and it sounds awesome ! for what they do that is. So go figure.

I think Chuck H nailed most of it regarding an explanation of effects chains, so I wont blather on much further. They are useful to some, to others useless, and to others, absolutely essential. What you would expect given human nature and preferences.

[Sea Chief]

The load refers...

Hi Bloomfield- that helps out I must say I've never considered the cone moved much at all (compared to hifi one's that flap about- well mine do with LZ at mighty vols) gtr spkrs seem as stiff as boards in comparison, but I can get the rough idea. Although car anologies are useful, tbh i don't understand the revs thing as I mentioned (why its in front of me- Ive no idea), & the principle of gears I don't find that easy.

I think I have a woman's mind in a chaps bodkin. But without the chest & downstairs bits. I mean without the woman's 'area'.. I have a weiner, but can't do rev counters. I think I'm just peculiar.