Effects loop. why?

[g1]

If we're fishing around for analogies, have you ridden a single gear bike versus a 10 speed (or other multi-gear type)?
The single speed makes a lot of compromises, the multi-speed matches your effort to the load conditions.

[d95err]

Going back to the fx loop discussion, I think delay is the most obvious example. It is almost impossible to get a subtle delay effect if you run it before a heavily distorting amp or pedal. The distortion will increase the volume of each repeat to the same level as the original signal, regardless of how you set the delay level.

For modulation, it’s more a matter of taste. For example, I prefer chorus before distortion. You get a fairly subtle fattening effect at full blast and when you turn the guitar volume down to clean it up, you get the classic chorus shimmer.

[Sea Chief]

Going back to the fx loop discussion, I think delay is the most obvious example. It is almost impossible to get a subtle delay effect if you run it before a heavily distorting amp or pedal. The distortion will increase the volume of each repeat to the same level as the original signal, regardless of how you set the delay level.

For modulation, it’s more a matter of taste. For example, I prefer chorus before distortion. You get a fairly subtle fattening effect at full blast and when you turn the guitar volume down to clean it up, you get the classic chorus shimmer.

I have never heard any difference running a few pedals in various positions, but prior to an amp is only how Ive ever used a very few: similarly I have rarely heard any difference between say a shootout of a series of 12" speakers much at all, only a mili-fraction, so hopelessly small your brain will not recall is my opinion, or remember A is an iota brighter over B (especially once you turn the treble on the amp an iota to make them both almost indistinguishably different). I can hear good tone, the amp as a whole, in fractions/ iotas sure.. so I dont have cloth ears. I wonder if this effects loop thing is to satisfy these bat-humans who can hear miniscule differences (in unimportant places-?).

[Pedro Vecino]

"I wonder if this effects loop thing is to satisfy these bat-humans who can hear miniscule differences (in unimportant places-?)."

An echo applied to an overdrive is not the same as an overdrive applied to an echo. The same goes for reverbs, wahs, equalizers and many other treatments: they work differently depending on whether they are before or after the distortion process.

[olddawg]

Much depends on the application.. as said before.. if you are a clean player you may not notice a huge difference. If you are a screamer it’s obvious in a NY minute..

[Sea Chief]

But you see I don't have a clue what you mean by a 'distortion process' within the context of effects loops. I know what a distortion pedal is, what a distorted tube amp sounds like dimed, what a sistrorted MV gain pallaver sounds like (tho no clue as to how its actually made compared to a dimed amp). Process?

[Pedro Vecino]

If there is distortion, it is generated somewhere. Sometimes at a specific point (a pedal, a amp channel...) and other times in a more complex way along the chain. The overdrive and delay test it can be done perfectly with pedals to understand what happens.
When I have sometimes been proposed to install them in a classic Fender amp (Twin, Super, Deluxe reverb...) I've never done.

[Chuck H]

I wonder if this effects loop thing is to satisfy these bat-humans who can hear miniscule differences.

Laughed my ass off! Bat-humans (Pppfffft)

[Leo_Gnardo]

Laughed my ass off! Bat-humans (Pppfffft)

Chuck, apparently you're not following the most important news since time began:



Now he's all grown up, and reviews guitar amps for magazines & internet readers.

[Chuck H]

I had the good fortune to work with Dean Markley on a couple of projects back in 2008/9. I suggested that he do the "reissue" thing that so many others have done. And I suggested the CD series amps because they have a bit of a following and actually sound really good for the most part (though a better speaker would have been a priority for me). Anyway... They did it. And I don't think they moved that much, but they did keep them on the market for a time and I think they're still selling the leftovers. So maybe it worked out alright. One thing I NEVER understood (and wasn't consulted on) was that they kept the goofy effects loop. That amp was a product of the era when effects loops needed send level controls. Whoever designed the amp must have wanted the ultimate control over sensitivity and noise floor because the effects loop on that amp has both send and return level controls. And it's full time in the circuit at the adjusted levels!?! The average guitar player pretty much pops a vein in their head trying to figure it out and the tech support must have been a nightmare. Even a couple of smaller time renowned players (names you'd recognize if you lived in their area) had trouble figuring the amp out. Why DMS didn't change that part of the design to a simple unity gain loop I'll never understand.

[d95err]

Badly designed fx loops is probably the main reason they are sometimes frowned upon. Most common design flaw is putting the loop after the master volume. This results in too low loop levels (high noise) when playing at low volume and too high (unwanted clipping) when playing the amp loud.

Rather than fix the original design flaw, designers add band-aids like send/return controls, resulting in the TMK-syndrome (Too Many Knobs).

[Sea Chief]

Ola Pedro, thanks for the reply/ good of you to try & explain. Unfortunately the 3rd sentence doesn't quite make sense (language).. which I think is the important sentence! so I don't know what you mean, sorry.

[Sea Chief]

Its this 'distortion process'.. on the 'chain'.. I have no clue of. Anyway I don't suppose I'll ever need an effects loop or use one, I just wanted to try & understand.

Another thing that eludes me on tube amps, & again has done for 38 years, is MV and Gain as opposed to volume. Are they the same thing? as Ive never been fortunate to be able to dime an amp (even a 5F1 in my detatched house, I can do only for 20 mins once a month or I will get n'bors round) & love a just-overdriven sound, Ive tried a few pedals, making a pedal even, but all have no sustain (& trail off quick) or good tone. So I thought I'd try a simple marshallMV as stated in #1.. & on ch1 there's a 'gain' + volume. But when I dime the gain, put vol on 1/2 say (about max I can do here).. no grit occurs. Clean as a whistle. Ch2 can get me approx where I want, via minimising its gain to 1.5.. but its fizzy & not much good tbh.

Ive witnessed/ actually played decent distortion only twice in my life. Its been that elusive. Once with a SF champ when I was 17 & didnt understand why the damn amp was so "distorty" but 'quite liked it even so' so as I recall. The only other time was trying a musicman 2-10 in a shop, using its MV: this is what I was after! £320 iirc (I was 20 then, & just knew by then that 'MV' + 'vol' together on an amp, meant distortion possible). So i went back next day to buy it.. gone. Probably some guy in shop heard me play, heard I got a good tone from it (unlike other chumps dicking about or dissing a 'musicman' with the silly logo) & nabbed it himself as soon as I walked out. I regret this SO much, because for 28 years since Ive not been able to get any decent OD type distortion since. Handwired DR's (too loud to get it), a handwired Champ (dark & too bassy), handwired Twin (hardly surprising), peavy bandit65 (fizz), musicman 2-12 (MV awful), vox ac15 (just sounded awful).. all sorts of amps. So I bought this marshall in desperation & there's no distortion. Now musicman 2-10's are £700 used! fk that. I'm almost in desperation thinking mesa-boogie, shell £1k on one & a godam pedal.. but I'm reticent after all my misses that with my luck it'll still just sound rubbish for some reason.

[Pedro Vecino]

Sorry. My English is very bad (I d´ont understand how I have not been kicked out yet). I was trying to say that in my opinion on a basically clean amp the existence of a loop is not very useful unlike other amps that have a specific distortion channel. Thanks!

[Sea Chief]

So its purpose is for use with distortion, while the amp's own distortion is being heard.. so xyz effect box isn't 'diminished' by it?