Effects loop. why?

[eschertron]

I can see a confusion arising by mixing up 'clean' tone and 'pristine' tone. (As Frus mentioned Pink Floyd) David Gilmour has a habit of really overdriving his guitar but not letting it get fizzy. The sound is EQ'd to remove much of the high-freq hash, and his technique eliminates the slop that can cause casual inter-modulation distortion. The end result is a round tone with lots of sustain and harmonic interest, but not much of debris that can accompany high distortion. So it 'sounds' like a pretty clean electric guitar and it fits the aural mold of a "clean guitar with FX".

[just typing out loud] And if IMD is kept to a minimum, the way a freq-domain effect (like chorus) gets distorted is similar to the way it sounds other way 'round. There could be some confusion between recordings made either way. Maybe we should be talking about the way FX sound on clean and messy guitar tones instead of clean and distorted [/just typing out loud].

[Justin Thomas]

Dave also plays LOUD, which also helps eliminate a lot of that "hash," because he grasps the concept of "low gain, high volume."

The funny thing to me is, listen to the studio edition of "The Wall." Then put on "Is There Anybody Out There," the live recording of the 1980-81 tour. Almost all of his guitar parts are VERY clean, with a phaser/flanger being the most pronounced effect. Even his solos are clean, compared to most, but HUGE. But when Snowy White takes a solo, it does sound fizzier & "smaller."

FWIW that live version of "Mother" is amazeballs.

Justin

[olddawg]

Dude.. the “amp reverb” is IN the effects loop! Or where it would be in the amp architecture if it had one! That’s the whole point everyone is trying to make. You really should try to understand block diagrams. Something like this.
Input -> tone controls -> preamp -> reverb/effects loop -> MV -> power amp -> speaker
Sorry.. I didn’t draw the boxes and left out the preamp gain controls, tremelo, etc... But get the idea? THE AMP REVERB IS AT THE SAME POINT IN THE SIGNAL PATH IN THE AMP AS THE EFFECTS LOOP.

[olddawg]

Dude.. the “amp reverb” is IN the effects loop! Or where it would be in the amp architecture if it had one! That’s the whole point everyone is trying to make. You really should try to understand block diagrams. Something like this.
Input -> tone controls -> preamp -> reverb/effects loop -> MV -> power amp -> speaker
Sorry.. I didn’t draw the boxes and left out the preamp gain controls, tremelo, etc... But get the idea? THE AMP REVERB IS AT THE SAME POINT IN THE SIGNAL PATH IN THE AMP AS THE EFFECTS LOOP.

[frus]

So it 'sounds' like a pretty clean electric guitar and it fits the aural mold of a "clean guitar with FX".

I was thinking more along the lines of this

https://youtu.be/rL3AgkwbYgo?t=211

Sounds like Big Muff to me
If you put this kind of echo before this amount of fuzz, you would certainly get unintelligible chaos

Btw, my opinion on this is that you need the effects loop only if you use the "drive channel" feature of the amp
And since I haven't yet heard a drive channel that is much better than a good pedal in front (and it's certainly less flexible), turns out I don't need the effect loop at all
(Of course, if you overdrive the hell out of the output tubes, effect loop doesn't help at all)

[eschertron]

I was thinking more along the lines of this

Right! I agree with your assessment. I'm only trying to pick nits here.

The sound has a smoldering intensity, very controlled and 'proper British'. I think it has to do with the execution of the single-note line. Every once in a while he hits a double-stop and the harmonics just splatter all over, to demonstrate the high level of clipping. But the ear can be fooled from the lack of higher overtones to think it's hearing a clean(ish) guitar. I suggested we call it 'clean' instead of 'messy'. Like Pink Floyd instead of Blink 182.

[frus]

Yeah, he does the cleanish high volume thing a LOT
But once in a while it's Big Muff (or Pete Cornish whatever) -> Binson Echorec -> clean(ish) Hiwatt

[Sea Chief]

Christ.. I'll leave you guys to discuss Dave's modulated frequency spill. I can't cope now

Whilst on distortion, forgetting effects loop for the mo.. if say a 1970's 50wjmp marshall dimed would produce beautifully rich harmonically complex distortion, or a 50w hiwatt, why on earth would 'Dave' instead choose a £100 od pedal? I just don't get it. Why would Mr.Ozric choose one with his 50w vintage marshall behind him (I think)? or maybe best eg, why JPage would choose one (his distorted sound closest Id imagine of the three eg's to a marshall's available natural reserve of distortion, in many different saturation/ textures)? It only makes sense if the volume prevents you getting to the amp's 'goodies' surely, like me & my Twin Reverb.

[nosaj]

Christ.. I'll leave you guys to discuss Dave's modulated frequency spill. I can't cope now

Whilst on distortion, forgetting effects loop for the mo.. if say a 1970's 50wjmp marshall dimed would produce beautifully rich harmonically complex distortion, or a 50w hiwatt, why on earth would 'Dave' instead choose a £100 od pedal? I just don't get it. Why would Mr.Ozric choose one with his 50w vintage marshall behind him (I think)? or maybe best eg, why JPage would choose one (his distorted sound closest Id imagine of the three eg's to a marshall's available natural reserve of distortion, in many different saturation/ textures)? It only makes sense if the volume prevents you getting to the amp's 'goodies' surely, like me & my Twin Reverb.

It has to do with what one likes, just as not everyone loves Sebadohs lofi goodness or even Sentridoh for that matter. It's all a matter of taste an what that guitarist thinks comes closest to that tone in their head.
See me I love love Dinosaur Jr, Sebadoh, Black Keys, Any Jack White, Billy Gibbons, Ray Wylie Hubbard. I love the fuzz or just a good tweed amp player.
I did pickup some Django Rheinhart at the library yesterday to check it out though.
nosaj

[Sea Chief]

One for nosaj..

Hi nosaj- actually the sebadoh lofi term is a lazy journo thing, only the 1st two 'sketch' Lp's 2 guys with acoustics at home were so. Afterwards as a trio, nr all output was normal indie prod standards, bar a few tracks on III. When I saw them in 93 (my favourite night of my life) the guitar set up was the very antithesis of lofi: a beautifully tuned early SF twin reverb > 4 string gibson SG, a RAT / Small Stone phaser/ grey boss EQ (I think as a boost). It was the closest to sonic gtr perfection I've ever heard, me at front squshed embarrassingly close to my js bach just a few feet away, the twin firing at me behind him. Glorious- I recall & savour the memory of it to this day.. those songs, that peak of gtr music that was mid 90's US "'ndie' (which blew punk out the water for quality & breadth of gtr music/ shows etc.. eg early pj harvey, early pavement, early ween), royal trux & linus both supercool fresh as fresh support bands as appetisers too. But that js bach guy (you know who, Dinosaur etc) right in front of me playing Soul & Fire etc. Then they switch, he's on bass/ other guys stuff as almost the ideal interlude within their set- fk me. Nothing & I mean it, in modern musical terms could compare to where I was, there & then I believe. Heaven. Nattering to them between songs, one shyly asking me for a cig (I was so squashed I plonked my cigs next to their RAt pedal!). Hifi that was- not lofi.

SC

[Sea Chief]

..& by coincidence today I wear the sebadoh t-shirt I bought that very night too: a good few holes in now! you guys not only made the best music then (made- where'd it all go wrong post ~1995?) but the best t-shirts too. 26 yrs to the day.

SC

[nosaj]

..& by coincidence today I wear the sebadoh t-shirt I bought that very night too: a good few holes in now! you guys not only made the best music then (made- where'd it all go wrong post ~1995?) but the best t-shirts too. 26 yrs to the day.

SC

Music goes in phases, if you roll back to the reagan bush years You have the Dead Kennedies, Black Flag, The Exploited to name a few. For me it was pretty dead till Seattle came alive.
I remember the first time I saw Henry Rollins, he was always such a bigger person in my head from MTV and such then I saw him at Knuckleheads playing with Corrosion of Conformity and damn if he was not much over 5ft tall

nosaj

nosaj

[Sea Chief]

Indeed, many great US phases from late 70's > early 80's on, but the last decent phase I think was mid 90's when hardcore softened a bit (eg fugazi) the seattle scene was going & produced countless excellent bands & these types sort of merged & mixed beautifully together early 90's to get bands like mudhoney.. plus the more laid back indie stuff going strong too. A kaleidescope of bands. But then the ideas just ran out. Perhaps sort of naturally like punk ended, but no 'phase' took off after that: & without one, I felt bands became a bit lost, the music wayward &/or quality fully nose-dived > a vacuum happened innevitably filled with banal 4/4 'UK new invasion britpop' awful gtr bands like oasis. urgh. I'm so lucky I saw the bands I did. Fugazi £5, mudhoney at Uni £4, ween at garage a few weeks after sebadoh (2nd best night of my life! fkn hilarious so so good), pixies, dinosaur (thunderously-stupidly loud- a fav band but turn the fkn gtr down! argh!) buffalo tom, pjh etc.. xyz small fresh bands in dive venues. I was 25 then when this all ended- perfect really. Ive been to one or 2 gigs since, The Fall '05 my last show (£10) & exceeded expectations too: anything else of very occasional worth was then £15+ a seated balcony view, a scramble for tickets before. No, not for me anymore. I then just immersed myself in Lp's since.

[g1]

The Fall '05 my last show

You are a very lucky man. One of my few regrets is not gone to see Mr. Smith but they rarely played Canada, and not even til '93 as far as I know.

[Sea Chief]

1st time I ever saw them: never top of my list bc I wasn't fully on board 'understanding' it, had only a few cds but hardly on repeat, more liked his attitude. But as soon as he came on.. my word.. he held my attention like nobodies business, he was an exceptional frontman right up there with iggy Id imagine. He amused me too, dicked about with guitarists amp knobs looking bored then snapped back with a menacing drawl. Loved it, good Fall time time too- Fall Heads Roll time. Leeds Irish centre, prob 2k folks at most. The perfect show to bow out for me, the godfather of UK post punk/ independent, with an attitude arrow-straight line link right back to punk itself.