tone control options

[Manic]

I have a couple of questions about tone control options for My 5e3. I changed the tone control to a low pass style. I'm pretty sure I prefer it over the stock 5e3 control. I would like to try any other options I may have.
So far I have a few in mind and was wondering if anyone has tried any of these in a 5e3, and/or what I might expect after installing them.
Here's a list of controls I thought could be worth trying.
I would like to keep damages to a minimum during testing, so any info would be most appreciated.

Moonlight
Garnet
18 Watt
Fender 5f4
Fender 5f2h

The moonlight is said to be low loss.
The garnet claims to be low loss
The others I dont have a clue what to expect, and Im not sure how much loss a stock 5e3 stack has.

[hasserl]

You can also forego a standard type Tone control and use a Vox style post PI "Cut" Control. I installed one in my latest 5E3 type amp and I'm liking it.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

The moonlight is said to be low loss.
The garnet claims to be low loss
The others I dont have a clue what to expect, and Im not sure how much loss a stock 5e3 stack has.

The tweed tone controls rely on the volume control setting (hi-low) and the frequency you are testing at... general statements about "how much is lost" is rather irrelevant because when you turn the volume up higher and higher only the high-cut bass tone setting is really doing anything.
For the most part even with the tone pot turned to least treble, what ever is left over has more then enough audio signal energy left to turn the power tubes inside out.

[Manic]

Thnx for the reply Bruce and Hasserl, umm I believe I understand what your saying Bruce?...
bottom line there is plenty of bass signal left over even at full cut on a stock 5e3 tone control to drive the power tubes?

For my next trick im goin to pull a rabbit out of my hat?...no. I would though like to install a moonlight tone stack, problem is that stack is for a single volume control and differs enough that I dont "get" how to install it in my 5e3. The input and output are backwards for a 5e3...pardon my ignorance, but any help with this mod would be most appreciated.

[Manic]

Here are a few ideas that I would like to try with My 5e3x2 build.
Forgive my slop schem doctoring skills!! My mods are in red and black ink

For starters I could use a lil pre amp crunch. At least I think so. Hopefully if tuned properly it would be an option, depending on where I have the volumes set.
Second I would like some better tone control options then what I can come up with using interactive stock volume controls of a 5e3....

So Basically Im goin to remove the normal inputs, then re route the out put of the bright channels volume into the now unused normal channels triode. I believe i will need a grid stopper to tame that stage back a bit. The out put of the norm channels plate still uses the .1 mf( which is now a .002 on my amp)....
then enters a Big Muff (Duncan TSC) tone stack. You can see the results of the added "body" pot (50k) in series with R2 (at 5k) (all values are referring to the attached schems (modded 5e3x2) values plugged into the DTSC). If you change R2 from 5k-55k (simulating the turning of the 50k pot) You can see it really scoops those mids or it doesnt scoop em!! When I run the values in the DTSC i looks like what I want to hear out of My amp....

So I was wondering if this looks a viable new setup for My 5e3x2.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Here are a few ideas that I would like to try with My 5e3x2 build.
Forgive my slop schem doctoring skills!! My mods are in red and black ink

Ha ha... No reason to not try it... but you'll quickly find out what happens with too much preamp gain vs power amp needs.
My first impression is that 90% of all the players I know will hate it.
It will force you to learn how to lower the gain in preamp stages while still keeping some good tone, but it would be a good exercise.

[Manic]

Ha ha... No reason to not try it... but you'll quickly find out what happens with too much preamp gain vs power amp needs.

well right on, thats what the grid stoppers are for and or maybe add a full voltage dividers before each triode. I could be way off though.


What about this setup that 9 out of 10 guitarist You know will hate? Is it the 15k grid stopper on V1A? Maybe the 2 gain stages back to back? The only other thing I can think of is the Muff stack. I'm at a loss(obviously) lol
I would really appreciate some enlightenment.

[Manic]

I tried the Moonlight. It didnt seem to have enough swing from dark to brite.
It also had a harsher tone than the variable resistor through a cap to ground style tone control Im currently using.

FWIW C Smith

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

well right on, thats what the grid stoppers are for and or maybe add a full voltage dividers before each triode. I could be way off though.


What about this setup that 9 out of 10 guitarist You know will hate? Is it the 15k grid stopper on V1A? Maybe the 2 gain stages back to back? The only other thing I can think of is the Muff stack. I'm at a loss(obviously) lol
I would really appreciate some enlightenment.

The grid stopper resistors will not reduce gain as you are thinking.
You do need a signal voltage divider to do that.
Go look at a brownface Deluxe and see the 15k/100k split load plate resistors on the recovery triode!
These two resistors will cut the signal by 50% to 75.
You could do something like that too.
My comment was more about the extra gain stage will cause the preamp to distort very easily and the volume pots will be hard to control. The stock amp already has more gain then needed to turn the power tubes inside out.
But I think it still would be a good project for testing your mod design and easy to tweak from there.
That's the fun part about this whole hobby.

[Manic]

After some more poking around, looking for single knob tone controls I ran into this scem for a 2 knob Train wreck, which low and behold has 3 gain stages and that groovey tone control ! Prolly gonna have to give that a try too. It looks easy enough to shoe-horn in.....I guess if I want to try running both channels on My 5e3 in series this might be the way to go.

I wonder if anyone around here has built or maybe heard one one these amps.

Its so close a 5e3 as far as parts go. I would guess Ken or Rich Gordon, who ever, modded a 5e3 at some point...might be where He got the idea for the TNT. Just a hunch. I would guess that other tinkerers with 5e3's have also seen the same opportunity to mod their amp in a similar fashion.

The Cathode (V2A) with the pot on it looks like a neat trick. I am still very new at this so all these lil mods are fascinating to Me.

[Manic]

The Cathode (V2A) with the pot on it looks like a neat trick.

Correction, after lookin at the scemo a lil closer I noticed that the VR isnt connected to the cathode. .
Its more like a master volume / variable resistor to ground grid leak thingy.
Another thing, whats up with V2A? Thats a odd cathode value isnt it?

I wonder if anyone has any info as to how that tone control works, its different looking than most single knob tone controls I have seen. I still plan on trying it, as always any info would be most appreciated.

C Smith

[Manic]

I know Ken Fisher and The Drz dude(forget His name) collaborated on the Z Brake. I have to wonder if this is the style of one knob tone control found on DR Z amps? Hmm.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I know Ken Fisher and The Drz dude(forget His name) collaborated on the Z Brake. I have to wonder if this is the style of one knob tone control found on DR Z amps? Hmm.

I don't know but have you tried that tone control yet?

[Manic]

Not yet Bruce....

I have done a few other mods. Cathode cap switches on both V1 and V2a bypass caps. Values of none/1uf/22uf are available now. With My tele I like the cathode caps at stock values for the most part. I do also think that no cap on V1 and the 1uf on V2a has good tone too.

I also replaced the Metal film plate resistors on V1 and V2a with CC's at stock tweed values. I at least THINK its a lil sweeter sounding ? Im not real sure if I can hear any difference.

After wanting to try it for months and months, I finally did the Paul C mod.....
lol I took it out the same day, it made an already bright amp to bright for My tastes. It didnt really seem to smooth out the OD much either. I was a lil disappointed. I was hoping for some real improvements with the Paul C mod. I have heard alot of good thinks about that mod. I am gearing this amp for a Tele. I dont need any more top end, but I bet it would be kewl to run with HB's. I didnt try it.

As far as the tone controls go, I'm going to either do the TR tone control or a mid control out of a Matchless Chief as My next project. I am leaning towards the TR though.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Not yet Bruce...
I also replaced the Metal film plate resistors on V1 and V2a with CC's at stock tweed values. I at least THINK its a lil sweeter sounding ? Im not real sure if I can hear any difference.

After wanting to try it for months and months, I finally did the Paul C mod.....
lol I took it out the same day, it made an already bright amp to bright for My tastes. It didnt really seem to smooth out the OD much either. I was a lil disappointed. I was hoping for some real improvements with the Paul C mod. I have heard alot of good thinks about that mod. I am gearing this amp for a Tele. I dont need any more top end, but I bet it would be kewl to run with HB's. I didnt try it...

I don't think the average player builder can hear much if any difference in tone when switching from metal film to carbon comp.
The metal film might be a little quieter. Of course you might be in that top 1%-2% of listener players who can hear such extreme subtleties.

Also, assuming you did the Paul C mod correctly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the Paul C mod made the amp brighter... that is odd.
Most reports are that it makes the amp very very slightly clearer (if at all) not brighter.
I don't know where the extra treble is coming from.
Most players think the stock 5E3 is not quite bright enough with most guitars, save the Tele ...or the bridge pickup on a Strat. And even those players, with the amp cranked, can still be a little flubby and woofy as the volume is advanced far enough to start negating the tone control.