tone control options

[hasserl]

I agree Bruce, I've never heard anyone say the PaulC mod caused any change in the brightness of an amp. A 5E3 that was too bright, that's a new one too.

[Manic]

I should clarify more..... I have the brightest tele ya probly ever heard...not to say the I like it THAT bright necessarily, but it is what it is. Right now I have a Muy Grande in the bridge position. Its about as fat as a Tele pick ups gets with out loosing the flavor of a tele that I have found so far. The guitar is still very crisp sounding with that pick up. Any amp I play that guitar into I have to dump top end. Non the less, its still a great sounding tele.....not to turn this into a guitar thread....

....as far as My deluxe is concerned, I dont play it dimed (dozened), I play primarily outlaw country. That much gain is a lil over the top for that style of music. This is My first Tweed style amp and makes for amp number, O' bout 60 something by now. I have noted that it gets smoother or darker as far as ice pick top end goes, when it breaks up. The louder ya crank it the "friendlier" or the "darker" the tone gets.....so I could see why its a bit of a shocker that I think a 5E3 is a bright amp, or to bright an amp. With HB's, cranked is darkish, no doubt. A Dozen picker friends of mine have heard My setup and agree that it could stand less ice pick top end. It is a fine line.

The Paul C mod, I'm 99% I got it installed correctly. It didnt radically change the tone. If I where playing a HB equipped guitar, for instance, and I played the amp cranked, then installed the Paul C mod and scrutinized the changes in tone, I dont think I would have noticed the increase in top end, and may have very well suggested that it sounded clearer.

Given My situation with the bright tele and not getting enough gain out of the amp to smooth out the top end very much, I thought the Paul C mod added a TOUCH of top end. A touch more top end on top of to much was noticeable enough. Just wasnt for Me. I also thought that the clarity that the Paul C mod gave took a lil sole away from the tone. It sounded a tad cold. To much treble can to that, make for a cold sounding tone. I also did notice a touch more headroom, for sure. All that being said, I may have mucked the install.

I do have the idea that most people hear about the same, its just that we train our ears as musicians over the years to critically listen. Some one could have the best ears around, but can not sing in key to save their life. They just arent wired that way, but its not because that they cant hear.

I believe that is in part, why our tastes change the longer we play. We are better trained listeners. I think we learn what to listen for, and notice more and more details. Some of the details we like and other we dont, so our tastes change. I think thats why alot of us are never satisfied with our tone, and always yearn for more!

My hearing isnt what it used to be for sure. 14 years of playing a hundred plus shows a year can do that I suppose. I have been actively scrutinizing audio since I first got interested in music. I was about 7 years old. I am now 39. So as far as hearing better than 98% of all guitarists, highly doubtful, but I have been to "school" for a while.

FWIW, C Smith

[Manic]

I got the tone control installed tonight.

Bingo!

It seems to be what I suspected it was.

This thing is by far the best tone control that I have tried to date. It has it all! I believe I could plug ANY guitar into to this amp now and get killer tones, even My treble hurling tele.
Of Course the verdict is never really in until I get it to a gig.

It does seem it could use some taper tweeks....its a lil touchy at the end of its rotation on the bass side(clockwise), which by the way, is actually backwards....ooops. I'll get er fixed when I make some tweeks on it.
It also has more than enough bass roll off on the treble side, which actually isnt that big a deal.



FWIW C. Smith

[Manic]

some follow up......I didnt get to dime the amp last night after getting the tone control installed. It was to late. I tried it this morning and found that I lost alot gain(not to surprising really). Im not real sure what to do at this point as far as getting some gain back.

I have an extra triode because I removed the normal channel from this 5e3.
I guess I could either run the extra triode in parallel with the first stage, or in series. At this point the tone control is sucking of enough gain so that when dimed the amp barely breaks up. It used to be a lil flame thrower.

Any suggestions would be awesome!

thnx C. Smith

[hasserl]

What type of tone control did you install?

[Manic]

The one I attached on post #10 of this thread.

Thnx for the help.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

some follow up......I didnt get to dime the amp last night after getting the tone control installed. It was to late. I tried it this morning and found that I lost alot gain(not to surprising really). Im not real sure what to do at this point as far as getting some gain back.

I have an extra triode because I removed the normal channel from this 5e3.
I guess I could either run the extra triode in parallel with the first stage, or in series. At this point the tone control is sucking of enough gain so that when dimed the amp barely breaks up. It used to be a lil flame thrower.

Any suggestions would be awesome!

thnx C. Smith

Yes I had a feeling that tone control in place of the standard 5E3 tone control was going to be a higher loss control and quite a bit of signal would be going to ground.
You could very easily use the other triode as a tone control recovery gain stage (after the tone control). That is the way it is drawn... I'd build it so the actual stage gain is not very high but VERY flat and broad banded.
I bet that would work stellar then.

[Satamax]

Huh, i might be daft, but isn't the common cathode a problem in this circuit?

[Manic]

There is one triode already following the tone control currently in My *5E3, that is of course how they are stock, so I would tack one more on the end of that huh?

V2A in the TNT scem looks to be set "not very high" ? (its not "normal" looking, from what I have seen) So I guess its what Your talking about, not sure though.

The first two stages in the TNT scem look dam near stock 5E3, well beside the volume control wires "properly" and the .022 coupling cap vs. a .1, stock 5E3 ?

Im just trying to get My mind wrapped around it a lil better.

It looks to Me like I have the extra stage wired before the tone not after it, in the 5e3 scem I modded and posted.

I would draw up some stuff if I knew of an easy to use program for schematic drawing, My free hand work is rather ugly. lol. I have tried a few of the free programs out there and cant seem to much done with them.

As far as tweeking the tone stack Im going to play with the values of the 150k resistors and see if that gets me headed in the right direction.


Thnx for all the info... C. Smith

[Manic]

Most players think the stock 5E3 is not quite bright enough with most guitars, save the Tele ...or the bridge pickup on a Strat. And even those players, with the amp cranked, can still be a little flubby and woofy as the volume is advanced far enough to start negating the tone control.

The TNT tone control has basically the same effect at any volume....thats one thing I liked about it right off the bat.

FWIW C. Smith

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

There is one triode already following the tone control currently in My *5E3, that is of course how they are stock, so I would tack one more on the end of that huh?

V2A in the TNT scem looks to be set "not very high" ? (its not "normal" looking, from what I have seen) So I guess its what Your talking about, not sure though.

The first two stages in the TNT scem look dam near stock 5E3, well beside the volume control wires "properly" and the .022 coupling cap vs. a .1, stock 5E3 ?

Im just trying to get My mind wrapped around it a lil better.

It looks to Me like I have the extra stage wired before the tone not after it, in the 5e3 scem I modded and posted.
...

Thnx for all the info... C. Smith

Well, no I don't think so, look at it like this... V1 A and B would be your 12AY7 and V2 A and B would be your stock 12AX7 topology.
You'll be inserting a lossy tone control between the two first stages, of which the second one will be your new gain stage.

You just use what would be the normal channel's 12AY7 triode to be the tone control recovery amp (right after your new and lossy tone control) and then send the output of that plate, lug 6, right through the .022uF cap to the 12AX7 V2 A, grid #2 ....which would be the 5E3's predriver to the phase inverter.
So, your V1 B section is the actual new cascading gain stage.

Now, if you have it, you could even use the normal channel's volume control as a master volume if you wire it just like the bright channel volume control but connect it at letter A, followed by another .022uF cap at the MV pot's wiper... which would then go in front of that 1M resistor on the 12AX7's lug 7, which will have a DC voltage on it. The new .022uF cap will keep DC off your new master volume pot.
Check the new schem below... it should be a little gainy but a rockin' dog.

[Manic]

Well crap, I tried the tone control last night at the gig. It was to scooped in the mids and the bass was very flubby, so Ive put back My original tone control which is basically wired like a guitars tone control, parallel of the output (wiper) of the volume control.

I always find that what "works" at home dont always cut the mustard live.

For tonight, to try something else, I wired up a PI cut control using a A500k pot, but used a .022 instead of the Vox value of .0047.
I'll see how this does and probly report back tomorrow with the verdict.

I may indeed pursue something along the lines of the scem Bruce modded, but to get the job done, for now it aint happening.

FWIW C. Smith

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Try a tone control from a Trace Elliot Velocette.

[Manic]

Hey thanx Bruce, thats a cool idea. It looks like a fender stack with the mid and high pot running backwards of each other as ya turn one "knob". I noticed running it on a tone stack calc that it shelfs the highs either sparkle or more mids and less sparkle. Thats hip. I assume I will prolly need another stage to recover gain losses, so Im thinkin it would the same scenario as the TNT scem You modded.
I'll have to hold off for a while unfortunately, I just have the time with in one week to get an extra stage setup. The band is booked solid for months in advance. I have a Band Master I picked up and Im in the middle of BF'n it, when its ready to gig Ill take some time and tear into My tweedy deeper. Having 3 knobs on a 5e3, i could since i already have the normal channel perty much removed, use the pot for a bass control and the tone knob for a treb control and leave the bright volume in tacked. Then using a small 10k-50k pot inside the amp as a mid control, I could find a happy spot, measure the value and install a resistor in its place, for a more permanent solution.

Typically with My amp, built stock or modded to the point its at now, I have to run the tone control on the amp almost off. Its like that with ANY of the tone controls I have tried so far. Its just to bright sounding unless I run the tone control near off. Seems to be choking the circuit running the tone that far towards full cut.. I would rather be able to open the amp up by way of the tone control and have a usable tone, so Ive been kicking around the idea of darkening the amp over all by either some Miller capacitance via adding grid resistor on one or more of the stages, or adding a parallel cap on one or more of the plate resistors. I like the idea of the resistor(s) over the cap. Adding a cap on the plate(s) seems like more of a band-aid than a means of "tuning" the amp.

Thnx again!