Question about Power Tube Saturation

[Sonno]

Hello all, first post here.

I have a question about Power Tube Saturation.
I'm looking to have a custom rig built and I'm doing a whole lot of research to find the "zen tone".

So, from what I understand, the ultimate signal line (without going thru a mix) would go something like this:

Guitar > Wah > Phaser > Compression > Pre EQ > Power Tube Saturation Overdrive/Distortion > Miked Speaker > Post EQ > Time Based Effects (chorus, delay, etc) > Power Amp > Speaker Cabs.

If this is correct, what wattage does the first power amp have to put out to achieve a substantial sound, and what size speaker(s) should be used in the isolation cabinet?

Also, if I'm wanting a little bit of good old fashioned "feedback", would it be wise to have a speaker located out side the isolation cab for that purpose?

Or do I just have all this all wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks.

[Steve Conner]

Can you tell us what style of music you play and what tone you're trying to nail? (names of any famous guitarists whose tone you like?) Also, are you intending to gig with your custom rig, use it in the studio for recording, or both?

My $.02 worth: I've been experimenting with amps, gigging and recording for years. I found that what makes me happy is a good 30 to 50 watt tube amp with clean and dirty channels, a 2x12" cab, and a couple of stomp boxes. I play bass in my current band, but I just swapped the 2x12" for a 2x15" ;-) I think if I was gigging on guitar, I'd add a digital effects unit driven off the main amp's speaker signal through a DI box, a stereo tube amp for the effects signal such as the little Marshall EL84 rackmount one, and another two 1x12" cabs to spread the effects sound right across the stage. That would end up kind of a ghetto version of the rig you proposed. I mostly play small gigs though, and I think if I turned up with all that gear and three cabinets to be mic'd up, the sound guy would tell me where to go.

I've read about a few different kinds of isolation cab for recording, and they used a 10" or 12" speaker of some classic brand (celestion or whatever) with a SM57 mic. I guess what size of speaker to use, and what power of amp, depends on what size of speaker and amp you prefer in normal use, so if you're a 4x10" Bassman kind of guy, use a 10", otherwise use a 12". Speakers smaller than 10" seem to end up sounding too bright for guitar.

You probably want enough power to get the cone flapping good, but not so much that you burn it out. For vintage speakers I guess that ends up at 10 to 50 watts.

[Bill Durham]

Power Tube distortion?

Sonno,

Not trying to bust your chops... but what does power tube distortion have to do with what you described?

The audio chain you described is pretty complex but probably typical for a lot of players these days. I'm an old timer that never really played with pedals much, so not sure I can be of much help to you...but if you really are going to go that far... I saw a pro rig up pretty close that you might consider using the same topography for. All of the same components were there that you described...pedal board, two half stack amps. The amps in question were Peavey XXX, but that part really doesn't matter, except that the Peavey XXX has an effects send. The way this guy had his setup, the effects were fed from the send of the one amp and returned into the other amp. This way, he always had the dry, uneffected signal for feedback, sustain, etc. Both cabs were mic'ed obviously for the PA. The guy in question was Rich Williams with Kansas. His tone is very thick and ballsy, he plays a PRS that can really sing when he wants it to.

FWIW
BD

[Steve B]

2 of the people using a setup similar to the one you described are Mike Landau & Eric Johnson. The sound of the amp is miked, sent to an onstage mixer, FX added, & back into a power amp & speakers or powered monitors. Mike Landau may have the affected sound wet only, but I'm not sure. Eric Johnson has a mix of the 2 though his monitor (I think) & the mix is also sent to the house mains.

Both of these guys use pretty powerful amps for the dry amps, but I suppose any wattage amp could be used. You could use a 18 watter, & then send it to a 100 watt stereo amp. You would adjust the dry wet mix to whatever met your liking, & you would hear the larger stereo amp instead of the small tone generating amp. I suppose if the tone generating amp is too low powered, mic feedback may be a problem.

Or, you could use a more powerful tone generating amp, & use the remote amp just for FX.

Mike Landau's setup. The mic with the grey cable goes to his FX amp, while the other 2 go to the house mains.
I'm not sure whose site has these photos, but here is the link. http://community.webshots.com/album/549350035dlsNZm



Here is a photo of Eric Johnson's FX setup.



Read about the details here:
http://www.ericjohnson.com/flash/amps.html


I hope this helps,
Steve

[Matt T.]

I just wanted to mention the "power tube saturation" terminology. What do you mean by "power tube saturation"? Many times what people think is power tube saturation...isn't. Like an old Marshall plexi/SuperLead, that's not power tube saturation that's generating most of that distortion. It's mostly the PI and preamp distortion. The power tubes do sweeten the tone though. With that in mind, IMO it's often so much simpler and sounds almost as good (maybe sometimes better) if you just use a good channel-switching amp with a good effects loop. Put the comp, wah, phaser into the input of the amp and the time-based stuff in the loop. One amp, one speaker cab, one mic, less set-up, and should be easier to dial in (both for you and the soundman). Then you could also put either a volume pedal or a boost in the loop (boost after all effects, volume pedal after all effects except delay) and have your own volume boost (for ALL tones, not just your lead tone) right at your feet.

I did the multi-amp set-up...for one gig then never again.

Also, I almost always put the compressor right after the guitar but there really are no rules there...whatever sounds best to you is all that matters.

[Sonno]

Hey all, thanks for the replies!
And Steve, great photo find! Very insightful.

I can map out what I'm looking to have built, but the overdrive/distortion end of it is a big whole in my chain. I know what I want, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to achieve it.

So, here it goes:

Guitar (Gibson Les Paul Custom) > Volume pedal > Wah pedal >>

Dual Line Selecter w/ Pan >
-L1: Phaser > Compressor > EQ > Distortion/Overdrive > EQ >>
-L2: Phaser > Compressor > EQ > Distortion/Overdrive > EQ >>

-L1: Power Amp > IsoCab Speaker > Mic > Powered Mixer >> Tremolo >
-L2: Power Amp > IsoCab Speaker > Mic > Powered Mixer >> Tremolo >

-L1L: > Stereo Flanger L > Stereo Chorus L > Stereo Delay L > Pan L >>
-L1R: > Stereo Flanger R > Stereo Chorus R > Stereo Delay R > Pan R >>
-L2L: > Stereo Flanger L > Stereo Chorus L > Stereo Delay L > Pan L >>
-L2R: > Stereo Flanger R > Stereo Chorus R > Stereo Delay R > Pan R >>

Powered Mixer > Full Range Speakers > Ears


It's not really as complicated or space consuming as it may appear. Pretty much what's going on is this:
The line is going from my guitar to vol and wah pedals and into a custom made analog stereo multi effects unit (>>). The unit splits the line into two usable chains (I can run L1, L2, L1 & L2, and Pan between L1 & L2). After the EQ/OD-Dist/EQ sequence, the line leaves the custom effects box (>>) and out to the power amp/isocab speaker/mic/powered mixer sequence. From there, the line travels back into the custom effects box (>>) for the time based effects, which are all stereo. Then the two stereo lines travel back to the powered mixer and out to a pair of full range speakers for the stage, and the house PA.

The part I'm having a problem with is this here:

-L1: EQ > Distortion/Overdrive > EQ >> Power Amp > Speaker in IsoCab > Mic > Powered Mixer >>
-L2: EQ > Distortion/Overdrive > EQ >> Power Amp > Speaker in IsoCab > Mic > Powered Mixer >>


A few questions:

1) I’m going after that creamy overdriven loudspeaker sound, so what is causing the distortion: the preamp or the power amp? If it’s the power amp, how do I control it? And what would be the point of having an OD/Dist unit at all?

2) What wattage power amp/speaker combination would suffice? 20/10? 60/60? 30/30? 60/30? 60/50?

3) How would I boost distortion without adding volume?


thank you all for your help!

[Matt T.]

Sonno,
Just my opinion but I say this having done a bunch of 'research' on certain things only to find that my experience (once I tried it) didn't match what I had read. You really have to take a lot of what you read on the 'net with a grain of salt. The only way to know is to try a bazillion things, throw many of them out, and only keep what works for you. IMO, it would be a mistake to have a custom rig built without having personal experience with each tone you're trying to achieve and knowing exactly how to get it.

But a couple of points:
I think you'd be better off using a guitar cabinet with guitar speakers than full range speakers after the power amp.

Why put the volume pedal right after the guitar and before the compressor? The volume knobs in your guitar would serve the same purpose and a VP in that spot will suck a lot of tone. Plus the compressor will tend to 'fight' whatever you're doing with the VP. It would be better if the VP was after a buffer of some sort.

I don't associate speaker distortion with creamy. If it's just coloration of the tone and the rounding off the edges when the speaker is pushed, that sounds good to me. But if the speaker is audibly 'distorting'...that just sounds really bad to me. I'm not sure which you meant here.

I would go for a speaker with double the power handling that the amp puts out. So if it's a 15W amp I would want at least a 30W speaker, but might go with a 25W speaker if I wasn't blasting full volume all the time.

Often when an amp or pedal is distorting, they have little to no more headroom. So if you slam the input harder then it just mainly gets more distorted and doesn't get much louder. That's why some guys just use their volume control on their guitar. They turn it down to get semi-clean and turn up to get more distortion but the overall volume doesn't change much because the amp ran out of headroom at the semi-clean setting. But you can always cascade pedals or use a pedal to goose the amp, light overdrives (like a Tubescreamer) work great for this and there's a lot of different flavors to choose from.

BTW, my posts might come across as cold but I don't intend to come off that way...I just think a bunch of smilies looks douchy so I leave them out... ...usually. Just tryin' to help a bro out.

[Bill Durham]

A few questions:

1) I’m going after that creamy overdriven loudspeaker sound, so what is causing the distortion: the preamp or the power amp? If it’s the power amp, how do I control it? And what would be the point of having an OD/Dist unit at all?

I'm not Steve, but would love to offer an opinion. In the context of a tube guitar amp, the distortion source varies with the mfg and also if the amp is a Master Volume model or not. If its a MV amp, it also depends if the MV is pre phase inverter or post as the phase inverter adds distortion as well. Having said that, I am not sure if there are any commercial models that have a post PI MV..maybe some of the boutique guys. Also remember that in order to get to power amp distortion, you really have to have the amp cranked... as in MV wide open (if there is one), preamp volumes cranked, etc. The vast majority of distortion heard is not poweramp..unless we are talking about a totally dimed amp.
Using an OD/Dist unit is a big question for me as well. Where I feel the need is to have the same fatness and texture for single notes that I have for chords. Using the pedal for that purpose is one way to do it. The key for me is to find which pedal will do that without changing the tone of the guitar..just make it fatter. I would rather let the tubes be the distortion source and just jackup the clean signal to make it a little louder.

2) What wattage power amp/speaker combination would suffice? 20/10? 60/60? 30/30? 60/30? 60/50?

Not a good practice to have speakers rated at less power than your amp.

Which speaker amp combo are you refering to here.. the amp driving the speaker in the iso cab or your stage monitor? Since the iso cab will not be heard by you directly, that could be about any safe combination that gets you the sound you want. The other will depend on the stage volume you need to overcome to hear it.

3) How would I boost distortion without adding volume?

Thats not hard if you are using a pedal for the distortion source, going from a clean sine wave to a nasty square wave means a reduction in volume in and of itself. Most distortion pedals have an output control for this reason.
If you aren't talking about distortion from a pedal, a master volume amp will help with this.

[Rob Mercure]

Power "OUTPUT" tube distortion

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to play "terminology police" like I do about every 5 years and remind you that the rectifiers - if you have one - are also "power tubes" and while the HiFi crowd makes subtle distinctions about rectifier "distortion" I can't hear it. So why not be more specific and use "power output tube" or simply "output tube" - it isn't "power distortion" that were are discussing but "output section" distortion.
And I like the idea of a saturated small output section for a "tone generator" being then "effected" and driving a larger clean output section - the "herzog" concept if one wants "creamy" distortion.

Rob

[jimi]

what's the advantage in separating the time delay effects and putting them in an effects loop?

[Sonno]

Well, here's a little better outline:

Line in
Loop: Send/Return
Line Splitter (Tuner Line, Live Line)
--Tuner Line
----Tuner
--Live Line
----Line Splitter/Line Selector (Line 1, Line 2, Line 3)
------Line 1
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
----------50wt Switchable EL34/6L6 Power Amp
----------G12M/G12H Celestions in IsoCab
----------Microphone
----------Power
--------Line Tone, Volume
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 2
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
----------50wt Switchable EL34/6L6 Power Amp
----------G12M/G12H Celestions in IsoCab
----------Microphone
----------Power
--------Line Tone, Volume
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 3
--------Pan
----------Line 1
----------Line 2
Output
--Stereo Output A > Speakers
--Stereo Output B > PA


But, I'm thinking this might be a bit easier:

Line in
Loop: Send/Return
Line Splitter (Tuner Line, Live Line)
--Tuner Line
----Tuner
--Live Line
----Line Splitter/Line Selector (Line 1, Line 2, Line 3)
------Line 1
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Line Tone, Volume, Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 2
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Line Tone, Volume, Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 3
--------Pan
----------Line 1
----------Line 2
Output
--Stereo Output A > stereo 6L6 power amp > cabs
--Stereo Output B > PA

[Steve Conner]

That looks like the wiring diagram for the Starship Enterprise! Are all of those effects you listed going to be part of a digital multi-effects unit, or will you have a pedalboard the size of a breakfast bar with 25 stomp boxes on it?

If you want a huge selection of effects, I think you might like the Line 6 Echo Pro and Mod Pro boxes, they each model about 10 effects pedals fairly well, and would look good in your fridge-sized rack ;-)

Seriously, I think your idea of replacing the power amp and speaker box with an overdrive and post EQ might work OK. But personally I like to be able to have chorus, compressor, phaser, wah-wah, filters and whatnot, before the distortion, and reverbs and delays after the distortion. (and ideally after the speaker or speaker simulator too, because reverb can sound kind of dull through a guitar speaker with its limited high end.) On a related note, I'd prefer to use analog stomp boxes for everything before the distortion. The digital rackmount jobbies are fine for the stereo stuff later on in the chain, but I program DSPs in my day job and I don't want any of those sili-cooties with their nasty latency, limit cycles and IIR rounding errors, getting between me and my tubes.

[Sonno]

Me personally, I like my modulators after distortion (phasers too).

And yeah, it's a big board: 48"W x 24"D x 12"H. The main box (the part with all the knobs) will sit up off the ground and near my fingertips, while each effect will have its own footswitch laid out on a pedalboard. I'm looking into digital potentiometers so I can save and recall different combos, but still keep the overall effect circuit analog. (Yes, I know. But a 1024 way DP would give me a range from 0.00-100.00%. I'm going to guess that dipping into hundreths of a percent would make the differences between analog and digital negligible.) The box lid will have LEDs displaying each effect's parameter values. It’s all pretty intense stuff. I'm talking with Pete Cornish to have this monster made; it'll be another 24 months before he can even start on it.

There's a good reason why I designed it the way it is.
1) I'm tired of bending over to tweak a pedal.
2) I'm tired of messing with all these pedals (line, wires, power supplies, etc.).
3) As for the 3 different lines, I'll give you 3 basic examples of the many possibilities.
a) Ever see "David Gilmour in Concert"? The very first track, where he plays "Shine On" acoustically, he uses a volume pedal on a split line with a synthed delay sound to emulate a keyboard which he then solos over. This is totally possible.
b) With the pan at the start of Line 3, I can morph effects, panning between what's set on Lines 1 and 2.
c) I can also combine 2 different effects sounds. Imagine a heavily distorted guitar run thru a lush vibe sound over top of a thick clean delay with the wet/dry mix set to full wet (no dry).

I'm not even going to get into the "Space" possibilities, ala Grateful Dead.


But anyway, I was reading about Power Tube distortion and was trying to figure out how it would work in my future rig. I think I'm just going to abandon the idea and rely on the preamp/effects for distortion and play thru a very clean amp/cab.

[R ski]

looking at your active speakers, power saturation isn't good.

the term refers to a tube amp to guitar speaker at the end link

a tube amp well set up will get creamy when dimed.

your distortion effects will require backing off or feedback
will go nuts.

the issue of attaining saturated timber is a factor of your
surroundings. my 15 watt gets creamy when dimed
in my back porch (enclosed)

when nobody is at home a 50 watter to stack of four
speakers kicks.

in a practice hall with a drum pounder beating the
skins to death, a 100 watter gets me heard
although hearing is threaten

[Steve A.]

Well, here's a little better outline:

Line in
Loop: Send/Return
Line Splitter (Tuner Line, Live Line)
--Tuner Line
----Tuner
--Live Line
----Line Splitter/Line Selector (Line 1, Line 2, Line 3)
------Line 1
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
----------50wt Switchable EL34/6L6 Power Amp
----------G12M/G12H Celestions in IsoCab
----------Microphone
----------Power
--------Line Tone, Volume
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 2
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
----------50wt Switchable EL34/6L6 Power Amp
----------G12M/G12H Celestions in IsoCab
----------Microphone
----------Power
--------Line Tone, Volume
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 3
--------Pan
----------Line 1
----------Line 2
Output
--Stereo Output A > Speakers
--Stereo Output B > PA


But, I'm thinking this might be a bit easier:

Line in
Loop: Send/Return
Line Splitter (Tuner Line, Live Line)
--Tuner Line
----Tuner
--Live Line
----Line Splitter/Line Selector (Line 1, Line 2, Line 3)
------Line 1
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Line Tone, Volume, Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 2
--------Compressor
--------Pre EQ
--------Overdrive/Distortion
--------Post EQ
--------Loop: Send/Return
--------Line Splitter: R/L
--------Multiple Resonance Filter (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Chorus (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Phaser (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Flanger (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Tremolo (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Delay (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Pan (Stereo Input/Output)
--------Line Tone, Volume, Reverb (Stereo Input/Output)
--------To Output
------Line 3
--------Pan
----------Line 1
----------Line 2
Output
--Stereo Output A > stereo 6L6 power amp > cabs
--Stereo Output B > PA

Ummm... how about this?

Guitar ---> Amp ---> Speaker(s)

It works for me...