What makes a Fender a Fender???

[geoffrod]

Can someone tell me what makes a fender a fender and is it completly and easily replicatable, What part of a fender circuit makes it unique to fender and not to say marshall, or whatever, i mean they all use the same sort of parts and there is no "magic" as such going on it is just the order in which parts are used and good building practice???? maybe.

I am a bit of a dummy so take it a little easy on me, i am just trying to learn.

I was in a local guitar shop yesterday and a guy was playing thru a fender deluxe, and it just sounded so nice, clean yet warm not dull, and full. i am just trying to understand what gets you that result.

cheers
geoff

[stokes]

Replicatable?Is that really a word?They are able to be cloned,but may or may not sound as good as the original.But then again you can take 2 Fender Deluxes,made at the same time,no modifications,same tubes and parts and they can and often do sound very different.There is no one part of the circuit that makes it unique to Fender,an amp is the sum of all the parts and construction,layout etc.The first Marshall was a clone of the early Bassman.Fender is widely considered the benchmark for amps and almost all amps copy them to some degree,but then Leo made his first amps from common circuit examples in a tube manual.He just refined the construction process till he got it right.To really get to the bottom of what makes a Fender a Fender or a Marshall a Marshall you would have to study the schematics and see what you come up with.

[Enzo]

It really is the sum of a lot of little things. WHich singer makes the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sound like it does? Answer: the sum of all of them.

I enjoyed the anecdote in the MArshall Story, Ken Bran, one of Marshalls designers, had some Fender transformers from like a Twin or something, and decided to install them in one of his Marshall amps just to see how it turned out. He said it still sounded like a MArshall.

[daz]

Well, one thing that is a big part of it IMO is the output tubes. To me, and this is from decades of gigging with a slew of amps, every a,mp i have played that had it's basic tone in the fender camp had 6L6's or 6V6's in it. Marshalls, EL84 or 6550. Thats what i've used, and those tubes all have a certain sound that is a big part of it. The 6550's sound sorta fenderish, but every marshall i've had with 34's was pure marshall.I've also modded amps to accept other tubes, so thats taught me a lot about what made for the tone i got. Of course it's also the tone stack and PI that are a big part of it. As those guys said, it's the sum of it's parts. But for me the thing that seems to make the biggest difference is the tubes. So a big part of what makes fender a fender is the 6 L/V 6.

[geoffrod]

ok so maybe it isn't a word, but maybe it is, the meaning is all i was trying to get accross, which you got,
thanks for your words of wizdom
i will go read schematics and see if i can make something from them myself

[geoffrod]

Thanks daz
appreciate your point of view.
cheers
geoff

Well, one thing that is a big part of it IMO is the output tubes. To me, and this is from decades of gigging with a slew of amps, every a,mp i have played that had it's basic tone in the fender camp had 6L6's or 6V6's in it. Marshalls, EL84 or 6550. Thats what i've used, and those tubes all have a certain sound that is a big part of it. The 6550's sound sorta fenderish, but every marshall i've had with 34's was pure marshall.I've also modded amps to accept other tubes, so thats taught me a lot about what made for the tone i got. Of course it's also the tone stack and PI that are a big part of it. As those guys said, it's the sum of it's parts. But for me the thing that seems to make the biggest difference is the tubes. So a big part of what makes fender a fender is the 6 L/V 6.

[tubeswell]

There's a lot that goes into the Fender sound as everyone here has said.

I am still intrigued to find that in heaps of Fender schems through the decades you typically find that the pre-amp has 68k grid stopper(s) and 1M grid load resistor setup going into V1, and the rest of V1 (which has a huge influence on the voicing of the amp), involves 100k plate load resistor (dropping the plate voltage to around 155-165VDC), 1k5 cathode resistor and 25uF cathode bypass cap, .02uF first coupling cap... then the attenuation between the gain stages. Obviously there's an evolution going on in the design of them which you can trace through the 50s and 60s, but its like Fender built on the same solid 'what works good - keep it' idea as he went along. (And I am grateful for it)

Compare Marshall pre-amp values esp. the cathode resistor (1uF) and cathode bypass cap (.68uF) combination, giving a different frequency rolloff (not as many lows as the Fenders).

[Enzo]

Remember too that 1M resistor disappears in parallel with your pickup. VOltages matter, and stiffness of filters.

[PRNDL]

I was in a local guitar shop yesterday and a guy was playing thru a fender deluxe, and it just sounded so nice, clean yet warm not dull, and full. i am just trying to understand what gets you that result.

The opposite question is more important: Why do most amps sound horrible?

The simple truth is few amps (used or new) sound fantastic, and many are amazed when they hear one that does. The reason depends on the amp.

The Tweed Deluxe is a simple amp that sounds fantastic.

If it was a Silverface Deluxe Reverb, most likely it has a new set of tubes and a better speaker (the original ones were usually lousy).

A good amp tech can usually make a tube guitar amp sing!

[Alden_Sloe]

If it was a Silverface Deluxe Reverb, most likely it has a new set of tubes and a better speaker (the original ones were usually lousy).

I'm amazed this is the first mention I've seen of the speaker. I guess technically it's not part of the amp but unless you're looking at wave forms on an oscilloscope you can't "hear" anything without a speaker.

Tubes obviously have a life of their own. All solid state amps started out trying to emulate the "sound" of tube amps. Now with ICs manufacturers are taking it to the next level and trying to emulate the legendary amps. But all of this is converted to sound by the speaker(s) which which in turn are greatly influenced by the cabinet. I guess even the output of the amp (wave form) is dependent on the speaker that it's driving.

[PRNDL]

Changing the speaker is one of the easiest way to improve the tone of a tube guitar amp.

The Fender Deluxe was considered a student's amp (as opposed to an amp for a professional musician, such as the Pro or Twin). In the Silverface era they changed from Jensen alnicos to a less expensive ceramic speaker to lower the price and make it more affordable.

[stokes]

Sure,tubes and speakers play a big part in the end result,but like Enzo pointed out,just changing one component isnt going to make a Marshall into a Fender.I have,and I am sure everybody else that has worked on amps for any amount of time have changed the tubes in many Marshalls from EL34 to 6L6 and still had a Marshall with a slightly different voice.In the case of Marshall vs. Fender the preamp voicing makes a bigger difference than the power tubes will.

[Enzo]

Hi Alden, welcome to the forum.

Actually we talk about speakers here all the time, just not so far in this thread.

A point I like to make to posters concerned about fidelity in guitar amps is that a power amp on a PA system is trying to REproduce sound and tries hard for hi fidelity. But guitar amps are primary sound producers, not reproducers, and so have a sound of their own, that being the reason some guys play MArshalls and some guys play Fenders. And the speaker is a large part of that sound. Just like the electronics, guitar speakers are not designed for flat hifi response, they are intended to add their own character to the sound.

So I don't think you need to call it not part of the amp. Sonically it is at the heart of the amp, which I think is part of your point.