Cone Cry or Edge Yell

[loudthud]

In his latest rant, Gerald Weber talks about "cone cry" or "edge yell" that he says plagues all 12 inch guitar speakers on certain notes of combination of notes. Do you know what he's talking about ? Can you give examples or describe how to create it ? Further, he says that replacing a 12 inch speaker with four 8 inchers eliminates the "problem" in his latest amp called Tres Equis. There was a Traynor amp that had four 6" speakers IIRC. I may even have one way in the back of the pile.

A quick search says the Traynor amp was a YGM-4 with 4x8" speakers. Somewhere in the back of my warehouse ...

[glebert]

If he is making an amp with four 8" speakers and calling it Tres Equis (three horses) then who the heck knows? According to this page maybe it is WEBER 12" speakers that are especially prone to cone cry. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...ne-cry.864536/

I don't really know if I know what people mean by cone cry. I think I have used the term when I had localized buzzing in a speaker cone/surround but don't know if that is what others mean.

[Leo_Gnardo]

In his latest rant - - - - Do you know what he's talking about ?

Gerald's hallucinating again, must have found a bad bottle of mezcal. Heck, speakers of any diameter can turn out funky noises & even moreso with "certain combinations of notes." Multiple small diameter speakers, a solution in search of a problem. Heck there was a big Traynor cab in the early 70's with a whole bunch of 8's (8 or 9 of 'em in some flaky zig zag pattern), and in more recent times IIRC Ashdown was flogging a bass cab sporting 8's. One of our local bass players fell in luv with this thing, couldn't understand why the speakers kept blowing. It took all of a 600W amp to get any volume outta that cab. "Oh, but the tone...!!!" Oh... but the smoke...

There were some odd experiments with guitar, PA and hi fi speakers, a dozen little cones mounted on a dodecahedron for "360 degree sound." You don't see 'em anymore. Maybe there's a reason why. Seems only Bose got away with the concept, in terms of acceptance. Lots of 901's in livingrooms 45ish years ago. And their PA version too. Both required a special EQ box, with a "big smile" curve, +15 at 50 Hz and +15 at 10 KHz. Plus a LOTTA power if you wanted to hear anything above background volume.

Gerald, he's such a great salesman though. Good for him. For the rest of us, let's stick to what we know works.

[Chuck H]

FWIW "cone cry" is real. It's happened to me. I couldn't understand why I was getting "ghost notes" and I was trying to chase it via possible oscillation, grounding issues or filter/decoupling problems when another member here suggested it might be cone cry. I tried a different speaker and the ghost notes went away. But I did like the tone of the first speaker better and once I knew what it was it didn't bother me as much so I put it back in the amp. The issue developed about a month after I'd installed the speaker and then gradually went away after almost a year of break in. This was a V30 in a 20W combo so break in went slowly.

From what I've read it's just an anomaly of the cone or a slight warp in the frame that causes a secondary oscillation that gives a sum/difference note that will be pronounced at certain frequencies (Leo already alluded this is not unusual for speakers). Worst case scenario would be a frame that's overtly warped due to damage from shipping or bad installation because there's no break in that can resolve it.

Point is, just so's ya know, yes it's a real thing. And it can be quite annoying. But in all my years playing, replacing speakers and building amps this has happened to me only once. So I'm inclined to agree with Leo. I think Gerald must be overly exposed to the phenomenon because he's making speakers that are prone to this problem. The message I'll take from this is 'Don't buy Kendrick speakers.'

[loudthud]

Chuck, was it a closed back cabinet, an open back combo or a tuned cabinet ? One thing I read said to limit power to a 12 inch speaker to about 15W or so. Any particular note of combination of notes that would really set it off ?

[Chuck H]

Chuck, was it a closed back cabinet, an open back combo or a tuned cabinet ? One thing I read said to limit power to a 12 inch speaker to about 15W or so. Any particular note of combination of notes that would really set it off ?

Open back combo cabinet. And there were two notes one step apart on the B string in the 4th octave (I think) that would set it off, though I can't remember exactly which now. Maybe G# and A#?

[Helmholtz]

He might mean cone breakup (partial cone resonances = standing waves), that causes spikes and notches in the frequency response. Happens to different extent with all cones. Especially with the stiffer paper edge cones of guitar speakers. Smaller cones exhibit the phenomenon at higher frequencies.
I'd consider it part of the characteristic sound of a speaker.

E.g.: https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...reak-up.72811/

[pdf64]

It may have been my hypothesis regarding the 15W limit per speaker (assuming a lightweight vintage celestion type cone) that you read, I remember coming up with that, possibly here, perhaps 15 years ago?
Cone cry sounds like a kazoo accompanying some notes of a heavily overdriven guitar solo.

[Mick Bailey]

Cone cry sounds like a kazoo accompanying some notes of a heavily overdriven guitar solo.

Hendrix enthusiasts; this is for YOU! Ever wanted that 'Crosstown Traffic' sound but just couldn't get it from digital effects? Now everything you play will sound like that with the new patented Jimi 'Kone-Kri' speaker.

[Richard]

It took all of a 600W amp to get any volume outta that cab. "Oh, but the tone...!!!" Oh... but the smoke...

That kills me. I see speakers rated for huge power but they aren't efficient. You could have an efficient speaker using a quarter of the power for the same sound level. And I don't see how you can get bass response without a lot of cone area.

[Mick Bailey]

I don't see how you can get bass response without a lot of cone area.

Xmax , cone and enclosure design amongst other things make up for lack of cone area - that's how KRK gets a sub out of a tiny 6" speaker. Small speakers can perform well at low frequencies, the tradeoff is you need a lot of them for high output installations.

When looking at bass response from small drivers think of those 3.9" Fostex full-range units that reproduce down to 22Hz. OK, they're hi-fi speakers but the real low-end comes from the folded horn enclosures they publish designs for. Enclosure design is everything. With a small speaker you stand a better chance of achieving optimum enclosure volume and porting because when you start to go bigger the enclosure design gets compromised for reasons of practicality.

[The Dude]

I think Gerald is just overstocked on 8" speakers.

[J M Fahey]

Cone cry is real but of course result of bad design choices or running things beyond limits.

Cone cry is literally that, a very ugly resonance which makes cone vibrate not all at once like a ´piston but ddifferent parts move back and forth at different speeds.

This happens all the time at some bearable level but sometimes may become so pronounced that you have standing waves appearing on paper between voice coil and edge, and being reflected back.

Not usual on Hi Fi speakers but quite possible on Guitar ones, first because of printing paper thin cones (to lower mass - get higher efficiency - increase highs).

It depends a lot on power too, so a thin light cone which was perfect in a C12R or C12Q driven by 15/20W rms may cry when used in a modern 60/80W speaker.

Solutions lie in damping that high Q resonance; trivial solution is using thicker paper, or heavy doping.

Most (all?) 12" *Guitar* speakers show a HUGE dip around 1700Hz or so, which is caused by soundwave travelling "like a seawave" or like along a stretched string from voice coil to edge and being reflected back out of phase.

By sheer chance GW said something true , "all 12" speakers have a common problem"

look at these curves from different manufacturers very different speakers and check the HUGE dip I mention which appears in all; all they have in common is "geometry":



Eminence GB128 Dip is impressove 8dB smack in the middle of the mid-treble area, very important.






Various Celestion:



By comparison: Eminence HempDog speaker.
Thick cone and heavy hemp fiber kill the dip ... but also the 6 - 10 dB 2000-400 Hz peak present in "all" proper Guitar speakers.
In my book, muddy as hell, but some like it





12" but NON Guitar speaker, Eminence Beta 12A.
Almost no dip but also no peak.:

[Leo_Gnardo]

Cone cry is literally that, a very ugly resonance which makes cone vibrate not all at once like a ´piston but ddifferent parts move back and forth at different speeds.

This happens all the time at some bearable level but sometimes may become so pronounced that you have standing waves appearing on paper between voice coil and edge, and being reflected back.

...

Most (all?) 12" *Guitar* speakers show a HUGE dip around 1700Hz or so, which is caused by soundwave travelling "like a seawave" or like along a stretched string from voice coil to edge and being reflected back out of phase.

By sheer chance GW said something true , "all 12" speakers have a common problem"

look at these curves from different manufacturers very different speakers and check the HUGE dip I mention which appears in all; all they have in common is "geometry"

Somewhere in my readings, way back long ago, there was a photo series on snare drum head resonances. Much the same as speaker cones, the first showed the whole head moving as one piece. If it was a speaker cone, we might interpret as "linear" response. Next photo, half the drum head is rising whilst the other is falling - first resonance. Then the next resonance, a "clover leaf" pattern, the head's in four quadrants, each "leaf" moving in opposition to its neighbors. Is that not enough? No, next was a "flower" pattern, six wedges, and beyond that more intricate geometries. That may be fine for a snare drum, but not so much for a hi fi speaker. OTOH some of the character of guitar speakers is defined by such breakup modes.

Notable that you mention the 1700 Hz - more or less - frequency dip in most 12" guitar speaker responses. Some years back a local amp "guru" was insisting on equipping every amp that passed through his hands with the Eminence Beta which doesn't behave like a typical guitar speaker, and here's the frequency response graph to prove it. Many of the local players who suffered this "mod" have since discarded those speakers in favor of more guitar-friendly models. Put those Betas in small PA systems or monitors. Or recycle 'em. About the frequency dip, would we see a similar artifact at other frequencies on other speakers? 15's, 10's? How about on Gerald's precious 8's? I bet we would, on some and not so much on others.

So, is it a "problem" ??? Or a "feature" ? Are we going around the block once again, some guru finds a "fault" and his special speaker simply moves that "fault" to another frequency where we don't notice it as much, or like the Beta, is missing the "dip" and not providing so much of a hi frequency peak.

Gerald: "Everything you own is faulty, and the only way to fix it is to buy what I'm selling!" Salesmanship. Another carnival barker. Don't we get that all day long, from toothpaste to automobiles, etc etc etc.

[J M Fahey]

photo series on snare drum head resonances. Much the same as speaker cones, the first showed the whole head moving as one piece. If it was a speaker cone, we might interpret as "linear" response. Next photo, half the drum head is rising whilst the other is falling - first resonance. Then the next resonance, a "clover leaf" pattern, the head's in four quadrants, each "leaf" moving in opposition to its neighbors. Is that not enough? No, next was a "flower" pattern, six wedges, and beyond that more intricate geometries. That may be fine for a snare drum, but not so much for a hi fi speaker. OTOH some of the character of guitar speakers is defined by such breakup modes.

THAT

Some 30 years ago, Celestion made a big fuss (well, they WERE pioneers) about "Laser vTestin g" speakers.

Mind you, not Guitar ones but Hi Fi, and at all ranges: woofers, mids, tweeters.

They "painted" cone/dome surfaces with a raster pattern of Laser beams, triggered at a frequency *slightly* different from the driving tone, so you could clearly see the "seawaves" travelling all over the place.
Of course, they tried to minimize them.

https://celestion.com/blog/advanced-...-and-analysis/

here they show the absolute simplest one, and probably the one causing the "1700Hz dip", I have seen terrorific vibrations all over the place.

Just consider a screwed on cabinet back panel.

IF you slooooowly sweep the speaker, at some frequencies back WILL rattle.

Only solution is to use a screw every 2 inches or straight tongue-and-groove assemble the cabinet as a single glued rigid box.

And even so .....