Why do we have tone controls anyway?

[gui_tarzan]

This isn't as simple a question as you'd think. Back in the late 70s EVH got rid of his guitar tone controls which led to a more pure-tone signal from his pickup. Since I was starting to build electric guitars of my own not long after that I tried it and it seemed to help with certain pickups and bodies. Don't misunderstand, I know there are times when you'd want to roll off bass or treble to get a certain effect but something recently got me re-thinking the tone controls of an amp.

What is the purpose? To remove or dampen certain frequency ranges with a passive design, we know that. But why do that unless it's to make up for design flaws or inconsistencies of speakers and other parts? It seems to me the audio purists strive for the flattest EQ they can get in hopes of reproducing the truest sound replication so why don't we do that with our guitar amps? Every musician I know personally sets their tone controls to their liking and leaves them alone for the most part after that. I can't remember the last time I touched mine unless they get bumped.

I could probably answer my own question with the fact that each instrument has its own frequency response, some sound better than others off the rack and tone controls help us compensate for that. Also, even though I have always had outstanding hearing until recent years (the upper highs are slowly fading), I can still hear nuances that other people around me can't, but I'm not trained to understand why. Is this yet another case of overthinking or is there some merit to removing tone controls completely?

[Helmholtz]

Every musician I know personally sets their tone controls to their liking and leaves them alone for the most part after that.

Right, but personal likings differ.
Also different instruments, playing situations etc. require adjustments.

What would be the alternative to tone controls?

[gui_tarzan]

Yes, I mentioned those. That's why I said I probably answered my own question but it's still lingering there as to whether or not a more pure tone would be coming out of the amp without having a tone stack to run through. Rather than a modified tone.

[Helmholtz]

Not sure what you mean with pure tone in this context.

The purest tone possible would be achieved by plugging the guitar into a hifi system (add a buffer for high input impedance).
Hardly anyone likes such a "neutral" sound with an electric guitar..

As a player I consider the guitar amp and speaker as essential (sound shaping) parts of my instrument - comparable to the body of an acoustic guitar, which also shapes the tone.

[gui_tarzan]

Pure tone as in what comes out of the guitar is amplified as closely as possible to the original tone without any coloring. This is a theory forum, I'm exploring the theory of tone.

The tone from my Jazz bass sounds good through my Ampeg amp and EV speaker, but it doesn't have that same growl as it does going direct into a mixing board and onto media whether that's tape or digital. That also would color the tone some I suppose, so maybe this is an exercise in futility. I guess I'm just wondering if a "purer" tone would be possible going directly through the tubes without any tone shaping at all. Then I wonder if some shaping is happening anyway due to the components.

It's a slow day at work so things like this pop into my head.

[Enzo]

It seems to me the audio purists strive for the flattest EQ they can get in hopes of reproducing the truest sound replication so why don't we do that with our guitar amps?

Simple. You are conflating guitar amps and hifi amps. A hifi is designed to accurately REPRODUCE some input signal. A guitar amp is designed to PRODUCE a signal. You want to reproduce the "pure" guitar sound? Plug into a PA channel. Doesn't sound like much. Guitar amps are made to add and contribute to the sound of the guitar - the amp is part of the instrument.

One tone and set it? OK, some guys are like that. But really, would you play Eddie Van Halen and then switch to Brian Setzer with no change of tone controls anywhere? Does Eric Johnsons sound like Slash?

We are not compensating for design flaws, we are celebrating the differences. How many 12" speaker choices does a guitarist have these days? I don't consider the differences flaws.

[gui_tarzan]

That's a good point Enzo. Also, room acoustics (or lack thereof) have a lot to do with the end result too. If Eddie and Brian switched rigs they would still sound like themselves on the others' equipment but the resulting tone would differ drastically. But are you saying there are no flaws in the design of any given amp as far as tone reproduction is concerned?

Before I bought my most recent bass I must have tried two dozen others. None had the acoustic tone that this one does and many were more expensive. I tried mostly Fender American Jazz which is what I have and I don't regret my selection at all. But at the same time I don't want an amp to hinder the tone reproduction of my bass, so that's one consideration.

[Helmholtz]

The tone from my Jazz bass sounds good through my Ampeg amp and EV speaker, but it doesn't have that same growl as it does going direct into a mixing board and onto media whether that's tape or digital.

Doesn't the mixing board use an equalizer? An equalizer is just a kind of tone control meaning a frequency filter.

Maybe you just need a different bass amp.

[gui_tarzan]

A different amp?????? Hah! It doesn't get much better than Ampeg, however mine does have the solid state power amp so there is that too. It would sound better through an Ampeg 8x10 cabinet but the EV SRO 15" is still a very nice speaker.

No, it's just the difference between how the sound was reproduced. One way is through the amp with the tone controls and out the speaker, the other is direct into the mixer with - obviously - tone controls and to media. When I listened to myself through headphones during the recording I was shocked at how good my bass sounds that way. I try to replicate that as much as possible with the tone controls on my amp but it is two different worlds.

[gui_tarzan]

Unfortunately this is always going to be a search for the gold at the end of the rainbow because there are so many other factors that determine the final result. But isn't it something you have thought about at least once over the years? Or is this just one of those "we get what we get" things that no one considers?

[uneumann]

.... But isn't it something you have thought about at least once over the years? Or is this just one of those "we get what we get" things that no one considers?

IMO - nothing could be farther from reality. Every component in the chain starting from guitar, PUs, cables, ... all the way to speakers and cab and room... Every piece provides a designer/builder an array of choices. People that make those choices are often highly informed and experienced about exactly these issues. They know from a technical and musical standpoint what the issues about EQ are. As you point out, even players make, at minimum, musical choices.

Idle thoughts about such matters are fine, but it would be mistake (innocent perhaps) to think that you're the first or only person to have considered such matters. I'm not criticizing you or your comments. I think it's human nature to think we "discover" things or we're having "unique" ideas. I think as one gets older (my personal experience) we tend to be more skeptical of our ideas since we've realized how many times re "reinvent" things.

The point is that it's good to wonder about stuff, it's how out of the box thinking happens. But it's also good to have a little voice in your head that says... maybe we should think or read about this a bit before assuming too much.

[g1]

Some people put a tone stack bypass switch in their amps. Even with the stack bypassed, guitar amps have huge (mid) dips in the frequency response and are not flat at all. That's part of why guitars sound so poor into a hi-fi amp.
Were you using any kind of DI box between your bass and the mixing board? How was the channel EQ set up? Did you listen through the studio monitors or just the headphones? I find that I like bass through headphones better right off the bat, aside from any changes in the amplification.

[gui_tarzan]

IMO - nothing could be farther from reality. Every component in the chain starting from guitar, PUs, cables, ... all the way to speakers and cab and room... Every piece provides a designer/builder an array of choices. People that make those choices are often highly informed and experienced about exactly these issues. They know from a technical and musical standpoint what the issues about EQ are. As you point out, even players make, at minimum, musical choices.

I don't believe I ever stated that these weren't a factor. Also, I fully understand what you guys are saying, I just wanted to know if there was anything on a deeper level I was missing. Obviously there is, or was. Enzo had a good point about conflating instrumentation amplification and hifi - they are two different worlds. No question.

Idle thoughts about such matters are fine, but it would be mistake (innocent perhaps) to think that you're the first or only person to have considered such matters. I'm not criticizing you or your comments. I think it's human nature to think we "discover" things or we're having "unique" ideas. I think as one gets older (my personal experience) we tend to be more skeptical of our ideas since we've realized how many times re "reinvent" things.

The point is that it's good to wonder about stuff, it's how out of the box thinking happens. But it's also good to have a little voice in your head that says... maybe we should think or read about this a bit before assuming too much.

Right. I don't believe I've ever said I thought I was the only one who had thoughts like this. I simply asked if anyone else had or if they hadn't ever considered it. Most people take things as they are without asking any questions. The sky is blue. Ok. If you stand in the rain you'll get wet. Gotcha. That's good enough for most people. I'm not most people. I have been accused of over-thinking things, this is probably just one more of those times.

As odd or irrelevant as my thoughts or philosophical questions may be to some people, it's how I learn. I operate on a "stream of consciousness" level most of the time. I think about something, and if I don't understand it I research it. If I still don't understand it I throw it all out there in a huge pile of what sometimes seems like unorganized drivel for more educated and/or experienced people like you guys to guide me. Regardless of whether or not you think it helps, it does and I am grateful for those of you that respond to my madness. Those of you that have tolerated me and my ramblings for several years have taught me more than you know and I thank you for that.

[gui_tarzan]

Some people put a tone stack bypass switch in their amps. Even with the stack bypassed, guitar amps have huge (mid) dips in the frequency response and are not flat at all. That's part of why guitars sound so poor into a hi-fi amp.

Were you using any kind of DI box between your bass and the mixing board? How was the channel EQ set up? Did you listen through the studio monitors or just the headphones? I find that I like bass through headphones better right off the bat, aside from any changes in the amplification.

Nope, I was plugged straight into the board. I have no idea how it was mixed, I just played. The sound through the monitors was pretty darned nice as well but I got the extra nuances with the headphones on.

It's also probably why I prefer to listen to music with earbuds if I'm relaxing or trying to sleep. I know they're cheap, but Skull Candy earbuds are the best affordable buds I've found so far. The clarity is pretty darned nice.

[The Dude]

Don't get me wrong- I totally understand why many folks want and use tone controls on their guitars. I don't. The first thing I do on my axes is unhook the tone controls. If I want a different tone, I use a different pickup combination or roll off the volume control. I'm certainly not saying that would work for everyone.