looking for a good quality valve/tube amp for telecaster & p-90 style guitar...

[Pipeline79]

Hi there, been looking around many sites trying to get my head round some basics re: choosing an amp for the guitars mentioned above.
I have a roland cube at the moment for my p-90 solidbody guitar, it was my first guitar and amp. In terms of not just buying a more expensive and older amp, but understanding how to get more control over how my playing sounds, I've decided it may be worth getting an amp (or setup) that'll allow more freedom and require more thought than just plugging the guitar in. If that makes sense.
I've looked on the amptone.com site - which seems to offer some quite good theoretical advice, but doesn't say much about what's worth shelling out for in terms of the amp itself. I love valve equipment (I already have a valve hi-fi), so I'd naturally like a second hand valve guitar amp. Seems obvious, as I've seen mentioned elsewhere, that the voxs, marshalls, boogies and fenders, etc are really stupidly priced and quite possibly dodgy these days (shame on the internet/ebay).
Are there any more realistically priced alternatives still out there? Ampeg? Selmer?
WEM? Sunn?
Something that's fairly reliable, sounds good in a versatile sort of way, has the necessary features for effects and could be modded if necessary. For example, could be used with a power scaling device etc.
What could be possible for say, five hundred pounds? Doesn't seem buying a head and making a cabinet saves you that much, cost wise, to me.
Is there any books I should look at to give me an idea of what I'd be buying?
(Sorry, too many questions!)
I'll shut up for now, I think...

[Chuck H]

Since you mentioned "pounds" I'll assume your on the other side of the pond (from me in the US). Most of the big MFG's have export models. I don't know how the prices are on your end but here in the states (it's my humble opinion that) the Fender Hot Rod combos and the Peavey Classic combos are hands down the best "bargain" for tone, reliability and versitility. It does depend on the style of music somewhat, but I'm guessing based on your guitar. If there's a different option on your end I'm sure someone will post soon.

[Pipeline79]

Since you mentioned "pounds" I'll assume your on the other side of the pond (from me in the US). Most of the big MFG's have export models. I don't know how the prices are on your end but here in the states (it's my humble opinion that) the Fender Hot Rod combos and the Peavey Classic combos are hands down the best "bargain" for tone, reliability and versitility. It does depend on the style of music somewhat, but I'm guessing based on your guitar. If there's a different option on your end I'm sure someone will post soon.

Thanks for replying, Chuck.
Yeah, I'm in England, here. I've just had a few looks through eBay recently, and in the Fender line it seems anything valve-based goes from £1000 upwards, more so if its an original. I assume, as with most things prices are probably more realistic when buying from a private seller, or even a music shop. I'm not sure quite what MFG stands for but I'll assume you're talking current models with the hot rods and peavey classics.
I suppose I'm looking for something pre-1980, that's under-appreciated, but as long as you know how to use it, would have enough quality to play at home as well as in a gig, etc if needs be. The amptone site I was referring to generally makes the point that any decent amp can sound great if you pay proper attention to factors like equalisation at various stages which enables control over power and tone. In short, not limiting yourself to the say, expected capabalities of the amp. If its fairly basic and you know how it works you can get a lot more from it.
The reason I posted is that this leaves quite a lot of different options. Because I haven't played loads of different amps and I haven't played for that long my knowledge is quite limited.
I've been looking at various slightly lesser known makes so far, that are from the same era as the classic big collectors items, but I hope should sound great with a little experimenting. Its still a little bewildering, unfortunately, though.

[guitarmike2107]

Buying something pre 1980 means you could be buying an amp on it’s last legs or needing a recap job , new set of tubes etc. . look into how much that process could cost you and you might change your mind.

Vintage Fender/Marshall vintage stuff usually goes for stupid pricing, Though you can still pick up JMP heads or JCM heads at good prices if your patient and are prepared to travel to get it.

You should look on Craiglist too BTW

Other option is to decide what you want and then build it yourself; you can get kits for most popular vintage amps these days

[MWJB]

<£500 valve amp, pre 1980's, in good working order & enough power to play off the back line in medium sized venues upwards (35W+)?

Frankly it's not going to happen, well not without a stroke or two of unbelievable good luck.

SF Fender Pro Reverbs & Supr Reverbs can be had for around £1000, plus a little. Vibroluxes a little less £800-ish. SF Deluxes can make good stage amps if fitted with a SS Rectifier, 6L6 valves, efficient speaker & a service...still about £1000+ all in.

The thing with a lot of the off brand amps, like WEM & Selmer, is that they simply weren't built so well...A Selmer TnB head is basically a rip off of a blonde tolex Fender bassman, can be bought & serviced fairly cheaply (in your price range), but then you usually need to find a cab. Selmer layouts were significantly revised during the run, later models were horrific in that respect, I'm surprised that any of them worked (so look for the early models).

I agree with Chuck that the Fender Blues/Hot Rod Deville/Deluxe, or Peavey C30 are a good bet for your price range. If you can live without reverb (perhaps you have a pedal?) a RI Bassman can often be had for £600-700. Maybe a used Custom Vibrolux Reverb? Maybe even a Blues Junior if you don't mind micing it up at larger venues.

Either drop the "Pre 80s" clause, or spend more.

[Chuck H]

fairly reliable, sounds good in a versatile sort of way, has the necessary features for effects and... for say, five hundred pounds?

Reliable=not pre 80's (without additional service after purchace anyhow)
Necessary features for effects=not pre 80's (effects loop?)
Five hundred pounds=not pre 80's

I'm guessing by your above description that by "sounds good in a versitile way" you mean that it has a good tone that is a bit tweakable and sounds good for most styles??? That does describe many pre 80's tube amps but with the above criteria I still think you'd do well to consider the Classic 30 or Hot Rod Deluxe. No shame in a new amp and both of these are on stages and recordings for good reason. I build custom amps for people and charge waaay more than the price of these models. And if it's any indication of their suitability, it kinda pisses me off how good they sound for so little coin. At least play through them and see. Take your own guitar. Arbitrary criteria like "pre 80's" will keep you playing through that Roland Cube.

[pdf64]

Yes, I was thinking a Selmer TnB - maybe £200; even Sound City 50 watters are going for over £300 now.
But those are old amps and so there will be reliability issues.
You mention 'the necessary features for effects'; fx loop? Not on pre 80s designs, though another channel can serve as an FX return.
How about Fender Hot Rod Deluxe/Deville? £400-500 on ebay with MV, fx loop and Justin's website for support.
Though for players, rather than gear obsessors / tinkerers, transistor amps have many benefits. The Fender Roc Pro and Princeton 650 sound great and are loads cheaper.
Unless you are strangely drawn to tweaking bias and fault finding crackles/hisses/rustles (ie you'd rather just make music!), then I'd seriously re-consider getting a valve amp. Don't forget the ongoing costs of running a valve amp; if you gigging loud several times a week, you may need to replace power valves every 6 months. Pete.

[Chuck H]

Where can I get Selmer TnB's for 200 pounds ($327 US)??? I'll buy ten right now and flip 'em.

[Pipeline79]

Yeah, sorry - some of my terminology is a little vague, I'll admit.
I do actually know a couple of people who help me with my valve hi-fi equipment, plus I know a fair amount about that myself - so I know what I'm getting into as regards the difference between that and solid state. In fact, I enjoy replacing various elements and maintaining them, in a weird kind of way.
I've now actually looked at the fenders and peavey's you mentioned Chuck and I'm sorry if I appeared to dismiss - they look and sound very nice, although I can't tell much from not trying one myself. Er, which I should.
Looking through youtube, I think the likes of fender silverface models (reissues or not) sound awesome. As do the sunn betas etc, but are just far too loud and dirty to be useful, to me I think.
The FX loop was what I meant, definitely - my teacher mentioned how you can switch in and out distortion effects (pedals). Not special knobs in the preamp stage of the amp itself - although I think most have some kinds of adjustments (presence, mid boost, a reverb 'tank' (not sure what that is). I've also checked back at amptone, and power scaling seems a good way to take a 25-50 watt amp, and then make it able to practice on at home with a 'hot plate'.
I don't think £500/$750 is that hopeful. Plus it depends whether I find something worth saving extra for. I've seen all sorts for sale - its a matter of judgement in choosing something that's not too good to be true, I think. Like the selmers mentioned above - speculators aren't so interested in them.
I think I'm probably answering my own questions here - but its good to be able to think out loud about this... My girlfriend certainly isn't interested!

[Pipeline79]

<Either drop the "Pre 80s" clause, or spend more.

I don't have any definite clauses, was just trying to narrow it down a bit. I don't mind spending less, or more - as long as its worth it.

[Justin Thomas]

"Looking through youtube, I think the likes of fender silverface models (reissues or not) sound awesome"

I've got a 67 BF Bassman with a mostly AB165 circuit amd a 1x15 recycled Roland keyboard cabinet, and the local shop has a Bassman 50 with the original 2x15. Both of these sound phenomenal with my Tele; I've got Duncans and a four-way switch in mine for series combination. I also bridge the channels. They're fat, punchy, and will grind like anything. They may not have enough headroom for you, though. I think these are underappreciated, and if you can find a deal on one of them, go for it. They're easily modded, too, and I think would compliment your P90s. I'm sold - I collect these now. I've not met a Bassman HEAD I didn't like.

Justin Thomas

[pdf64]

Chuck, hope this link to ebay uk search works
selmer treble bass | eBay UK
I'm trying to sort a MkII out for a buddy to sell - the price seems to be even worse than I thought though, as you can see they're not even making £200.
What do they go for over there? Pete.

[Chuck H]

Ebay US only brought up one completed listing. And it didn't close. But typical private seller prices range from about US $750 to $2500. Shop prices are rarely below $1500 and collectible examples (year???, condition) can go for silly exclusive prices.

If I did my research to learn what specifics people are looking for in this amp model (year, maybe a specific circuit designation???) then I may consider shopping ebay UK and flipping auctions. The shipping would be silly high though.

[Pipeline79]

"Looking through youtube, I think the likes of fender silverface models (reissues or not) sound awesome"

I've got a 67 BF Bassman with a mostly AB165 circuit amd a 1x15 recycled Roland keyboard cabinet, and the local shop has a Bassman 50 with the original 2x15. Both of these sound phenomenal with my Tele; I've got Duncans and a four-way switch in mine for series combination. I also bridge the channels. They're fat, punchy, and will grind like anything. They may not have enough headroom for you, though. I think these are underappreciated, and if you can find a deal on one of them, go for it. They're easily modded, too, and I think would compliment your P90s. I'm sold - I collect these now. I've not met a Bassman HEAD I didn't like.

Justin Thomas

Thanks justin.
This guys making me a tele with pickups he's made himself - my teachers already bought a strat from him and he says they're pretty wild, really well made.
I listened to some of the more grungy amps with a tele and you can get a sound not unlike Mogwai (if people know who I'm talking about), which is not surprising seeing as one of their guitarists at least used to use a tele through some kind of huge rig, if my memory serves me right from pics.
Thats the question though, you have to think what sort of music you're gonna most want to play - or sound you want to get, more to the point. And although I love sabbath, doom, riffing etc - its not really where I want to go at the expense of everything else.
I agree the fenders are really nice. Whats headroom? (I'm pretty clueless when it comes to terms like this) Top end?

[Justin Thomas]

Not sure of the technical definition... Headroom is basically how far up on the volume control it stays "clean." My Bassman 100 (a Twin Reverb without the effects) has a lot more headroom than my Bassman, and my Reverberocket 2 (20W) has way more headroom than either one of them. My Bassman will break up around 4 if you whack it pretty hard and eases into Neil Young tone from there. My Bassman 100 will break up around 7, and keep going into a bigger version of the Bassman; "Working Man" was rumored to be a Twin Reverb on 10, and I know it's POSSIBLE... The Reverberocket (designed for Jazz, basically) distorts at around 7 also, and it's pretty nasty when it's all the way up. I could mod it, but I want to leave that one alone. I'll probably sell it shortly, for another Bassman...

Hope that helps,
Justin