Water Damaged Vintage SFTR Head: $1100 -- Is this CL Seller Smoking Crack?!?

[bob p]

I keep an eye out on the Chicago Craigslist for Twin Reverbs. It's a weakness I have.

In the past two months I've found an early 70s SFTR (non-master) with the original orange JBL speakers, and a late 70s (master) SFTR with EV SRO-12. Both in very nice condition, original tolex and grillcloth, for $650-$700. In the Chicago market, that's a decent price for a properly working amp. Amps that need repair can always be had for less, but as a general rule everyone likes to think that their SFTR is worth $1100, even when it's all beaten to hell. Well, I think I've found an even more striking sample of seller-overvaluation: this guy is asking $1100 for SFTR that was converted to a head after he found it submerged under three feet of water!

1971 Fender Twin Reverb Head

Here's the test of the CL listing, just in case it should disappear:

1971 Fender Twin Reverb Head, with footswitch for reverb and tremolo.

The reason for the conversion into a head was due to the fact that when I acquired this amp, it happened to be sitting in about 3 feet of water. So, after letting the amp dry out for about a decade (I actually forgot that I had it), I decided to have it looked at to see if it was worth salvaging.

The amp tech (Jay Woods, owner of Option 5 pedals out of South Bend, IN) looked at it, and a thorough cleaning, new caps, new power tubes, and a head enclosure from MojoTone.com, and the amp is revived back to glory!

All of the hardware on the head is from the original amp, except the amp corners (came with head), 4 knobs, and the reverb tank bag (both from TubesandMore.com). The "Fender" Logo, reverb tank, amp handle, mounting hardware and screws are all original.

This is a killer Fender amp, and without the full weight of a 2x12 twin reverb!

Will consider trades for 3 channel amps or USA made guitars.

What amazes me is that this fellow is placing an $1100 valuation on an head conversion on an amp that was submerged under 3 feet of water!

[Justin Thomas]

Um, no, Beavis (the seller, not you, Bob) ... I think the same problem is a lot of places: damaged/hacked/destroyed amps are NOT made "better" or "more valuable" by being chopped up, restored after a hack job, or "Distorto-Tronned" in your garage.

Restoration CAN add value to a trashed amp, but it will never make it as valuable (price-wise) as an unmolested example. Restoration has no impact on inherent quality or sound, usually, which is why I buy restored or resurrected amps - they SHOULD be a bargain! Another point - that beat-up amp MAY well sound a whole lot better than the pristine original, because the honest road wear means someone was willing to GIG with it, and put their paycheck on the line... don't disqualify a beat amp, especially if it has been lovingly cared for, just cuz it isn't shiny.

Another thing - sentimental value does NOT mean you can charge triple, unless you're David Gilmour or someone like that.

As to this SFTR, May it SOUND like it's worth $1,100? Perhaps! Will I PAY that for it? No, because I can make one that guaranteed sounds EVERY bit as good as the head in the listing. I will pay no more than the price of two trannies & choke, tubes & sockets, pots, and a chassis. So, $400-500? Wait, I have the OT laying in the garage... My bet is that the seller had to sink several hundred INTO the amp to get it running - cabinet, $300; guts, $100; possibly a tranny or three. That alone more than makes up for the inherent value of the remains. Because any Twin Reverb that was "sitting in three feet of water" was wet well above the handle...

Justin

[Steve A.]

In the Chicago market, that's a decent price for a properly working amp. Amps that need repair can always be had for less, but as a general rule everyone likes to think that their SFTR is worth $1100, even when it's all beaten to hell. Well, I think I've found an even more striking sample of seller-overvaluation: this guy is asking $1100 for SFTR that was converted to a head after he found it submerged under three feet of water!

1971 Fender Twin Reverb Head

If the chassis was sitting water it seems like it would have a lot of rust. If the water did not reach the chassis the seller could have omitted the fact that the cabinet had been under water... if his conscience allowed him to. (Mine wouldn't.)

Pretty crazy listing! I just checked prices at GC for a used SFTR: $699.99 plus $36.45 s/h plus tax. $802.72 for me.

Steve Ahola

[Leo_Gnardo]

sentimental value does NOT mean you can charge triple

Apparently this one has sedimentary value.

So does lots of stuff that was soaked by the Nashville flood a couple years ago. Of course it doesn't have to be Nashville, any water will do.

I really worry about water retained inside transformers/choke in cases like this. Long term playing will be the only way to prove they're OK.

Also what about the black cardboard on which the components are mounted? I'd expect that to be randomly conductive after its underwater experience. Let's not leave out the rectifier board, sure would be a bummer to have leakage to chassis there.

[The Dude]

Yes, but Nashville water gives it some moxie. If it was Nashville water, it may well be worth the money.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Yes, but Nashville water gives it some moxie. If it was Nashville water, it may well be worth the money.

Well I was gonna mention that, if your gear is going to be waterlogged you might as well claim it happened in the famous catastrophe at the "center of the music universe." Whether it really did or not.

[bob p]

I thought he was pretty far off base on the price. Like Justin said, if the amp was found sitting in three feet of water then it was totally submerged!!! Just about any Fender combo, like a Super Reverb or a Bassman 10, found sitting under 3 feet of water would be totally submerged. Yikes.

I don't doubt that the seller is underwater (pun intended!) on the cost of fixing up this amp. He undoubtedly had to pay as much to get the chassis up and running again as it would have cost to have bought a replacement. Like Justin said, that Mojo head cabinet alone costs $232 plus shipping ($162+ if you have an account with Mojo), and you could easily spend another $100 in non-tranny parts. Add labor costs since he had to hire a tech to do the work for him. The long story short is that he's upside down (I prefer to use the term "under water") on this amp.

Nevertheless, I emailed him to ask for details. The exchange was interesting:

I already own a 70s Twin Reverb, and I'm looking for a backup.

Since it's been waterlogged you need to post photos of the chassis inside and outside.
Since it's been waterlogged the condition of the transformers needs to be shown with the endbells removed. Are they rusty? Are they original? What are their numbers?

Since it's been recapped you need to post photos of the caps under the pan and you need to post several photos of the circuit that clearly show all of the parts.
Since it's got a new reverb pan and footswitch from CE Distribution you need to disclose whether the pan is Belden, Accutronics or their MOD house brand.

I realize that if you are an end user and not a tech then these considerations might not be obvious, but to show a new Mojo cab on an amp that has been waterlogged is not adequate disclosure of the amp's condition. More photos would be helpful.

$1100 is a very strong price for a completely original 1971Twin Reverb with speakers. I recently bought a complete original amp with EVs on CL for $600. Are you firm on that price? It's not realistic.

Later tonight or tomorrow I can get you all of the pics you are looking for.

As far as the reverb tank, that is the original tank, I only needed to replace the bag because it was rotted.

Transformers are original as well.

As far as the price, that is negotiable, but I've seen reissues going in the $600 range, but nothing vintage.

We can discuss further once I get the pics over to you.

Ryan

The closest comparison to a Twin Reverb that's been modified into a head is a Dual Showman Reverb head.

GC just sold a vintage DSR head in "great condition" for $650. As you probably know GC prices are always on the high side, and an original DSR head is worth more than a Twin that's been converted to a head, because it's still original.

What became of the speakers? And the original cab? Are they available?

FWIW I just bought a 70s Twin Reverb off of CL a month ago for $650. It was a completely original vintage amp, except that it had a pair of very hard to find EV SRO-12 alnico speakers subbed for the original CTS speakers. A couple of weeks later I found another one downstate that still had the orange JBL in it for $700.

I understand that the Mojo cab was not cheap, but to be fair, that cost is part of the repairs for the loss that you suffered when the amp got water damaged. Unfortunately a Mojo head cab doesn't increase the amp's retail value over that of a twin cabinet with speakers. Then there are the missing cab, missing speakers, replacement footswitch that have to be accounted for.

I'm looking forward to pics.

Hey, I completely understand what you're saying, but an early 70's twin is running between $850 and $1500 on Reverb.

So, hey that's great that guitar center had DSR so cheap, and hey, bravo to the guy that scored it. But in reality, I'm not going to sell for $600.

So, the reality of the situation is that I don't need to sell the amp, and it's not like I'm doing it because I need money, I simply don't use it any more.

But I would rather keep it than to sell it for the price you are hinting at.

That being said, if you still want the pics, let me know.

Ryan

I was actually hoping that he'd say that the trannies had been replaced with new reproductions that were rust free, but this guy seems to think that the rusty watterlogged transformers are more valuable because they're original waterlogged rusty transformers. Needless to say, the pics that were promised of the trannies and the chassis interior have never arrived. Presumably, the trannies are heavily rusted and the fiber board is water damaged or has been completely replaced. It sure seems that he's trying to find a sucker who won't ask too many questions.

I agree with Justin -- I'd value this amp way below the value of a garden variety STFR for several reasons: no orignal cab, no speakers, water damage. I'd value it no higher than the value of an ebay Fender chassis project that has potential problem iron, and there's no way I'd compare it to a Reverb listing for an amp that has never been abused. Sure, this amp has a nice Mojotone cabinet and a new reverb bag and a new reverb footswitch, but they're not original. That's OK for a working amp, but there's no collectability in this amp. And you have to consider the cost of that cabinet and all the repairs that were necessary as repair costs, and not as upgrades of any kind. They were the sunk costs (pun intended!) in bringing a flood-damaged amp back to operating condition. I don't think this amp will ever go for what he's asking, and his worst-case scenario estimate that I'd pay even $600 was just ridiculous. I bought two much better amps in the past two months that were complete amps with nice speaker upgrades for that kind of money.

[bob p]

Apparently this one has sedimentary value.

LMAO!

There was a 100-year flood in Northwest Indiana back in 2008. That's probably when the amp got submerged.

[loudthud]

Must be a really tight fit for the reverb tank.

[bob p]

Good point -- that Mojo cab is the size of your typical non-reverb head, unlike the Dual Showman Reverb head which is a lot taller. It's got to be a tight fit.

I didn't highlight this point earlier, but in my email I assumed that he had replaced the reverb tank, and I was quite surprised that he only replaced the reverb tank *bag* and not the tank itself. I'm amazed that anyone would recycle an original tank after it had been sitting underwater. Those reverb springs aren't very rust resistant, and I've seen plenty of old Fender tanks that have gotten nasty just from the humidity of having sat in basements and garages. I'm thinking that if the amp was underwater and specific steps weren't taken to remove key components and bake them fully dry, then the reverb tank, springs and transformers would have to have lots of interior rust. I can't imagine that a rusty reverb spring would sound any good.

Do you have any insights as to the value of flood damaged amps? I'm guessing that with all of the Texas floods that we hear about, you might know more about the value of flood-damaged amps than I do here in the Midwest.

[Chuck H]

Well the amp has already been shown to have at least one useful property, but I think $1100 is too much for a boat anchor.

[Richard]

$650 for a Twin with Alnico SRO's? That's a great deal.

[Tom Phillips]

Doing the math a Fender Twin Reverb Cab is ~22" high. The subject amp was "...sitting in about 3 feet of water."
Hmm...?

So the seller is explaining this because...?
I guess it is his explanation about why the asking price is so low.

[loudthud]

There is a picture on the CL ad of the date stamp inside the chassis. Doesn't look like very much rust. Might of only been under water for a couple of hours.

[bob p]

$650 for a Twin with Alnico SRO's? That's a great deal.

I thought so. I had been hunting a pair of those SRO with the white coffee-can 6 lb Alnico magnets for quite some time, and when the amp surfaced on CL I jumped on it just to nab the speakers. I had every intention of keeping the speakers and flipping the amp, either without speakers or with a new set of Jensens or Legends.

I got the automatic email from CL telling me about the new listing on a Friday night. It was sitting in a small family-owned music store about 45 minutes away in Podunk, Illinois. I called the store after hours and left a message on their answering machine with my name and number telling them that I would meet them with cash when they opened the following morning, and asked them to hold it for me. I got there an hour before they opened and drank coffee on their stoop for a half hour until they came to open the store. I rolled it out to my car just as all of the kids started coming in for their Saturday morning lessons.

For those of you who may not be familiar with the tone of a Twin Reverb with SRO, the match of those 60W speakers to a 100-135W Twin Reverb is just incredibly good. The SRO stay clean while the amp stays clean, and they start to change their voice just at the time that the amp is starting to sing. IMO they're a match made in heaven -- much smoother than the D120 JBLs which can get a bit ice-picky. I've never heard a set of speakers in a Twin Reverb that sound better.

That just goes to show ... you don't have to pay $1000 to get a killer deal on a great Fender amp. If you just keep your eyes open there are still plenty of good deals out there. The only reason that people have to pay $1000+ for an amp is because they're impatient. Good deals come to those who wait, and automated search notifications really help you be first in line when the wait is over.