Vintage fender- which one.

[Sea Chief]

Hi- I've finally bitten the bullet & going to buy my dream amp.. an original fender, but which is the Q.

I'm thinking: vibroverb, pro reverb, vibrolux reverb, deluxe reverb, princeton reverb, or brown pr/ deluxe.

What I want, is the fender "X factor". Simple as. You know: some fenders (seemingly most often the vintage ones circa ~1968-71) just have a level of tone that surpasses most all others it seems by a mile: reissues don't even come close, they just 'approximate' IMHO & sound totally uninteresting.

I see this fender 'X factor' on vibroverb & vibrolux reverbs most. Whether shared circuits & spkrs Im not sure. Orig DR's I notice it too, but, Im reluctant as my home-built DR >2-10 (Riftampssourced&checked/ certified as it were) is so bassy I can't deal with it- to get an even tone I don't think I should be dialing treb 8.5, & bass 1 with single coils (5,5 surely). So unless an original DR is brighter.. I need to have the bright switch as an absolute must (I tried 5e3, a £1k Rifttv deluxe Im borrowing, & a 5F1 worst.. all so bassy I dont play at all/ a 5F1 so totally useless even with a tele that I can't understand how anyone finds these useable in any way at all so dark: rolling the vol down even a bit & its so ridiculously bassy its like Im playing a tele neck p'up wired in that absurd 'bass' mode: a total waste of time).

I have a SFTR 79 ish on its way from fixers I hope to god won't show this wretched bassy trait, or if it does I can tame it to 'normal/ balanced' tone by the 3 tones + bright switch. But a SFTR vs an orig vibrolux reverb for eg? chalk & cheese: I think you understand what I mean. A spanner in the works; I played an orig Pro reverb recently & it just sounded like 'an amp'. No X factor (in effect I wouldn't have paid £50 for it so uninteresting it sounded/ weird).. so for some unfathomable reason SOME orig fenders have the X-factor.. but equally SOME just simply don't (why I can begin to understand/ I never will). Tricky for me.

I have one shot. I must get that X-factor sound! help me out if you would.

Thanks SC

[Sea Chief]

I think maybe vibroverb, brown princeton/ deluxe/ any is going to be £too much. I have £1.2k max.

[pdf64]

Did you tell Rift about your issue with the DR?
Note that BFs tend to be rather bass heavy if used with closed back / ported cabs.
And it's all but impossible to find the correct ~30% audio taper pots needed for BF treb and vol controls in the UK; taper-wise, the best bet are Fender branded spares for the RI models, but they aren't 'proper' old fashioned pots.

[Sea Chief]

Hi Pdf64. No issue at all with Rift (its my build/ I haven't got £1.2k to spend on a Riftrepro).. its just the circuit. I have a DR extention cab & removing the middle one = less bass. But even so its still stupidly bass heavy: actually it -IS- like having the completely wrong audio taper, but, I have them correct. And it has been said that dialing in bass @ more than say 3 on a DR -IS- pretty hefty & folks tend to keep 3 as max. Regardless of how divine an original might be, it inherrantly seems like there's something amiss with the circuit to me using modern components perhaps.

Anyway this is one reason Im ditching anything but original fenders now. Im so sick & tired of this bass wallop ruining everything, even a tele @ middle position.. that there's only one route left I can see: originals. Im NOT convinced by anything that replicates an orig now, whether RI or handwired-with-best-components modern repro. Occasionally thjough an odd exception repro -will- sound as good as an orig. But these are so few & far between (Ive ony ever heard 2 a bandmaster & a brown 6g3) & must be (I can only surmise) either the result of an exception/ an exceptionally gifted builder.. or a massive fluke getting precisely the correct voltages/ tolerances in all the critical points. Actually Ive boiled it down to either this being the essence of why orig fenders (most) sound so utterly better, or a combination of this + the transformers & caps especially, being of a far superior quality than anything available since.

[pdf64]

Sorry, I didn't mean that you had an issue with Rift; rather did you explain to Rift (eg when he checked it etc) that the amp seems too bass heavy?
Note that the BF bass control should be 10% audio, eg a standard modern CTS audio taper; a steeper taper (eg the 30% taper used for vol and treb) on the bass pot will tend to make the amp seem very bass heavy.
For unknown reasons, DrZ uses a linear pot for the bass control on BF Fender based EZG50; check the forums, many users think that the amps are very bass heavy, complaining that something may be wrong as it sounds so bassy with the control set above 2.
A simple swap to a 10% audio taper pot makes the world of difference to the user interface here, even though the range of control is the same.

What do you mean by "I have a DR extention cab & removing the middle one = less bass" ?

[Sea Chief]

Hi pdf64- interesting info, I wish I'd known about 10%, 30% tapers before: might have saved an awful lot of time & consternation (should you be right that this might have done the trick re. excessive bass) but then if others say the circuit is just inherrantly bassy.. then nothing wrong with my amp; its just the circuit.

I have a feeling I do simply have std moderrn CTS pots for the bass controls. But, I've never heard of different varieties of the same audio or linear being available, let alone heard of anyone suggesting, or using anything other than a std 'linear' or 'audio' xyzK pot in any DR build (or any of the zillions of threads I used to build the 4 amps Ive made).. so this is total news to me.

Anyway this is another reason to quit this build malarchy (as much as this build cost £500+ in components & 40 hours in time.. its a waste of effort if it sounds well, like just 'an amp' ie nothing interesting sonically at all, merely a shadow/ a vague representation of an original.. let alone one that seems -to me- voiced for baritone cellos not guitars (completely wrong- but I say this also about tweed & tv deluxes till the cows come home, even rift-built, & esp the dreadful/ totally unuseably dark 5F1).

There aint anything wrong with it in terms of build or components. Its sounds like a DR should, & has even been said 'excellent sounding' from his ampgodliness mr.rift himself. Its FS you see anyway.. to fund a proper amp. Im selling the whole shebang to get me £1.2k > to totally start all over again > and with care get 'the amp' Ive always pined for (clever).

[pdf64]

The exact taper is often noted on the schematic, eg see 250k 30A J taper, 250k 10A, 100k B etc on an RI http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...erb_manual.pdf
or 250kA 2-35 on an early SF http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...a270_schem.pdf
But then later SFs used all ~35% J tapers on the tone controls, hence seeming way more bassy http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne..._100_schem.pdf

The trick is to know what to look for / understanding what's written

[Dave H]

I wish I'd known about 10%, 30% tapers before: might have saved an awful lot of time & consternation (should you be right that this might have done the trick re. excessive bass) but then if others say the circuit is just inherrantly bassy.. then nothing wrong with my amp; its just the circuit.

I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake

Most of the amps you are considering have similar circuits which have a frequency response as below so it's no wonder they are bass heavy. I think it is normal to turn down the bass and turn up the treble to get a usable tone from this circuit. If you adjust the tone with your ears rather than your eyes it won't matter whether the pots are lin or 10% log as the range adjustment is the same. The log pot settings just look better that's all.

Before you sell your DR and spend a lot of money try changing the DR's input stage 25u cathode bypass caps to 1u (polyanything caps will do) to reduce its bass. I like to have a Matchless/ Orange FAC tone switch to keep the bass under control but it's not simple to add to a DR.

[Sea Chief]

Hi Dave H- "I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake"

well why do you say that? by doing this thread I'm trying to mitigainst exactly this. Im trying to get all the knowledge before I buy a proper amp. I dont call any RI or homebuild as a proper amp, beit fancypants builders charging through the nose or any RI. They just don't sound like the real Mccoy. Night & day. You should know this.. I know you do.

Thx but the graph means absolutely nothing to me but a curve with a dip in it & some numbers at the side!

Im not changing the DR now. Its stock (works as it should, & quiet no hum) so that's the way it will be sold within ~a week. Its already behind me. It looks the bllx tho: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1626959103...84.m1554.l2649

[Dave H]

Hi Dave H- "I hope this purchase isn't going to turn out to be an expensive mistake"

well why do you say that?

Because you already have an amp which you say is working as it should but it's not working for you and now you are selling it to buy a similar one with the same circuit

[Sea Chief]

Oh do come along DaveH. A similar one with the same circuit.. is not the same one with the same components!! or there wouldn't be RI's worth only £500 & originals worth £1.5k!! my amp sounds nothing -in any way shape or form- like an original 68 deluxe reverb. Nothing remotely close. You know that it doesn't. So why ask this Q???

[keithb7]

OP, what volumes do you play at? Do you play in a band, with a drummer? Do you like and want natural tube break up? Do you need a fairly loud clean signal to keep up with the band some times?
Who are your musical influences? What type of music do you play? All these are important questions to help you decide which vintage amp is the right one for you.
I've got, and had a few I can tell you about:

[Sea Chief]

No self built sounds a patch on an original DR is my point. None (not mine bc its 'compromised' or anything whatsoever is at fault with it- its a good DR according to Rift. But a good repro).

Speakers? for another thing are completely different even if they have the same looking 'jensen'/ frames & stickers. Modern ones sound utterly sh*te & not even in same ballpark regarding clarity/ highs/ tone etc to a [good] orig.. how on earth could mine even be compared? no they just can't

again- you know this too: so why ask that Q? perplexing. So you're effectively saying I should consider an RI just as much as an orig.. bc they have the same circuit?!?

[Sea Chief]

keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.

[keithb7]

keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.

I showed the pics to qualify my experience with vintage Fender amps. No internet false statements here about what amp works for what. I have been through a few.