1973 Super Reverb - cap questions.

[Wengr]

Hello. I have a new to me 73 silverface non master super reverb. It appears that every cap is original. I see no signs of leaking, bulging or any other visual problem with any of them.
So, my questions are:
1 Would you consider any recapping as a matter of course? Or is it crazy to remove the originals?
2 It works correctly, no excessive hum or odd noises, however I'm not loving the tone. It's brassy for lack of a better descriptor. Highs can be ice picky with some guitars, but it's kind of harsh and brassy. no sweetness to the tone. Speakers and all tubes are replaced, and I believe most everything else is original. So while I would not be surprised if some caps can affect touch sensitivity somewhat, can they affect the tone in this manner?

Happy to have found what looks like a great forum.

[bob p]

speakers

[Wengr]

They are model # V1030, Fender branded Eminence.

[S a m]

The problem here is that for decades there was one camp which consider these objects as tools which require maintenance and another bunch who viewed them as magical relics which lose all mojo if touched. Phrased otherwise, some people believe that capacitors have tone and others think that they have electrical value.

At this point, as the youngest handwired Fender amps are about forty years old, the marketplace seems to have recognized that it's OK to update capacitors as long is you keep the original worn-out ones in a bag and sell the bag with the amp.

Another point of gearhead orthodoxy and heresy concerns speakers. Speaker technology has improved dramatically over the past decade or two, so that many of today's products are lighter AND louder than their ancient forebears. But there's no denying that speakers DO have 'tone.' My suggestion is to try plugging your Super into a variety of cabs. See what moves you musically. If you decide to update your speakers, absolutely do save the originals.

[pdf64]

From the info provided, there seems a reasonable likelihood that the amp is not working as its designer intended, eg tubes, electrolytic caps etc may be weak, barely functional, resistor values drifted significantly.
We don't even know if it conforms to the basics required for electrical safety.

Any newly acquired (or otherwise newly 'to be put into use') item of vintage electrical equipment requires a suitable technical appraisal by a properly resourced, competent person, before being operated.

A problem with trying a SR with other cabs is that 2 ohm guitar cabs are not the norm.
Cabs of other impedances will 'work', but will tend to affect the amp's performance, operating characteristics etc, so may not be an 'apples to apples' comparison. And the cab itself has a significant tonal contribution, eg the same speakers may sound different in different, even apparently fairly similar, cabs.

[Wengr]

thank you for all the helpful replies. I am aware of the 2 ohm output transformer. But I also have a 1966 super, so I will dig that out and put them back to back and test speakers.

[mozz]

Also from NEPA. Have you tried to measure the filter caps? They could be low on value. You can also check for DCV on the far side of the coupling caps, that would let you know if they are leaky. Check some random resistors also, if a few are high, the others won't be far behind. Higher values such as 1 meg and 470k will show it first.

[Chuck H]

I'm with Bob and Pete. Replaced speakers and final EQ tone are always suspect. Good you have means to test that (But I wonder why you have to "dig out" your 66 Super ). And low performing or drifted components can drastically alter tone. Especially filter/decoupling capacitors. I'll add that the bias can also affect the tone at extremes, so that should be checked as well.

[Fretts]

I just went through a whole speaker thing with three new amps, all Fender in fact. The takeaway for me is that those new speakers need to be broken in and loosened up. It makes a night and day difference. One of my amps came with the legendary Celestion Blue in it. It honestly sounded like ass - it was impossible to believe that this speaker with a 50-year reputation could sound so awful. Spikey, brassy, honky, cardboardy. I got some advice from a speaker maker I know and fed the Celestion 6 volts AC from a variac all night long. In the morning it was all there, everything I had heard about those speakers. That amp is now as good as anything I've ever heard. The other two Fenders I just played good and loud for a few days when the wife wasn't home -- they also let go and opened up. Before you try anything invasive or expensive - try just breaking in the speakers and see if that's all it needs. Brand new speakers are often horrible sounding.

As far as caps go, I know the mantra is 'always recap a 45 year old amp' but if it was mine, I'd do the speaker break-in first and then keep the senses peeled for any funny effects like excess hum, ghost notes, weird 'halo' frequencies, wrong smells, things like that. If you don't hear anything yet, I'd just let it roll for a while. You'll have to do the electrolytics soon for sure, but why not change one thing at a time? Then you can really hear what each change does.

[Chuck H]

Huh? You broke in speakers overnight or in a few days?!? $h!t. It took me all of a year to break in a V30 before it stopped mellowing. I think you may actually be breaking in (read fatiguing) your own ears! My speaker started out with harsh upper mids and a little cone cry. All gone now and I love it, but... I don't look forward to breaking in the next one or another one.

[Fretts]

I think the key is to do things that flex the cone's surround and spider. Low notes. I had a another set of 12's break in during a 2-hour session where I was comparing my crap-sounding 2x12 cabinet with a series of good cabinets that I was considering trading for, all with the same amp head. As time went on, it got harder and harder to tell which sounded better so I went home. The next day, the speakers were great, it wasn't just fatigue. I'm sure there's a long tail on the break-in with it getting a little better for some time, but that first big break-in can happen overnight. I hear you can also use a small 6.3V transformer instead of a variac. I happened to have a variac and no 6.3V transformer so I did it that way. At Scumback Speakers, Jim has built several large iso boxes where he breaks in multiple speakers at a time this way, before shipping them out. It's a known thing. I just never tried it for myself and now I'm a believer.

[bob p]

At Scumback Speakers, Jim has built several large iso boxes where he breaks in multiple speakers at a time this way, before shipping them out. It's a known thing.

Jim Seavall, owner of Scumback Speakers, used to post at The Axhouse (a private invitation only forum) using the screen name "Scumbag." I was there during the time that he was doing research on pre-Rola Celestions, prior to his taking the project commercial with his Scumback speaker company.

His choice of monniker seemed appropriate; Scumbag once posted about whipping his dog with speaker cables because he chewed on them.

I'd rather not use my speaker budget to support a Scumbag who boasts about abusing animals.

[pdf64]

I share your sentiment but chewing cables is a really dangerous behaviour, so perhaps his actions weren't malicious?

[Mick Bailey]

Visually, a bad capacitor can look the same as a good one. Those Mallorys from the 70s are probably the most reliable ever made and usually test good for leakage, capacitance value and ESR. What is more difficult to predict is when a capacitor will fail. The life of an electrolytic is given in hours/voltage/temperature, so age is against them. In addition, we don't know is if the amp lay unused for a number of years, which also affects the life of a capacitor if a polarizing voltage is not maintained.

Ageing capacitors can affect the tone of an amp - especially if a stage is not being effectively decoupled. Then you can get dissonant effects that are subtle at first, then ultimately give ringmod-type sounds especially on higher frequencies.

When looking at a re-cap, it depends what you want. Is it an assurance of reliability for a gigging or working amp?

[Chuck H]

I share your sentiment but chewing cables is a really dangerous behaviour, so perhaps his actions weren't malicious?

And may have been posted tongue in cheek, but he has a poor sense of humor?