About Ampegs

[ironfly]

I'm considering to buy a vintage Ampeg: a V4 head or a vt-22 combo.
I know they are very loud and clean amps...what i need is some information about their preamp (gain stages,EQ circuit,etc..) configuration.
I've been told these beasts rely more on the preamp section when pushed to overdrive beacuase of their power amp's loudness...it looks a bit like the way overdrive occurs in Mesa-boogies or Tweed Fenders (compared to Blackface/Silverface Fenders).
However,it seems that also their preamp circuit is very clean and unlikely to distort the signal more than so much!
So..what kind of crunch should I expect from these Ampegs?
What other amps compare with them as for preamp configuration and tone?
Sunns?
Hiwatts??

[mac1amps]

I've always found 70's era Ampegs to have a lot of gain when the mid-range is turned up to higher levels, although it can often result in a somewhat "nasal" sounding mid-range (especially with humbucking pick-ups). And, as always, since they're a 100-watt amp, it takes a lot of volume to get any "genuine" crunch (the models with masters didn't sound too hot, as a rule). I often found the [harder to find] V-2's to sound a bit better from my standpoint. And, BTW, I would strongly reccomend the Head/cabinet configuration over a VT-22 combo. They're a BITCH to transport (they make a Twin Rev. seem easy to haul by comparison), not to mention Ampeg made nice 4x12 cabinets.

[ironfly]

Hiwatt vs Ampeg

Do you think a hiwatt dr504 retubed with 6ca7 would be similar in tone to an ampeg v2?
I'd be reluctant to use el34s as i don't find them very suitable for a guitar w/single coils (i own a rickenbacker 610 - solid-body)!

[mac1amps]

Hmmmm, to me, that would be an "Apples to Oranges" comparison, a Hiwatt with it's Partridge transformers and all (assuming it's in good working order) is truely a gorgeous sound. Again, the Ampegs, would often 'tend' to have a very mid-rangey sound, especially since the degree of which the mid control was turned up would be a large factor in how much preamp gain you would obtain, as well as their 7027A output network. BTW, the subtle differences between an EL34 and a 6CA7 will vary, more from manufacturer to manufacturer than between the two model #'s Many manufac. print both model #'s on their tubes. I would say that the differences you've run into between these two models were strictly circumstantial. They are 'virtually' the same tube.

[rf7]

To me, Hiwatts are brighter sounding amps than the Ampegs. They are both pretty clean compared to the kind of gain that people are used to today. If you want a lot of gain, I'd look elsewhere for that. Although, a properly modified V-2 (or V4, for that matter) with a master volume in the preamp can get you into early 70's Rolling Stones Get Your Ya-Ya's era sounds. I used to use a Hiwatt DR504 with a Firebird and it was way too bright. I say try before you buy.

[ironfly]

the 6ca7 tube

Isn't the 6ca7 tonally closer to the 6l6 family?
I thought that a 6ca7 tube is like a 6l6 at the output of an el34 (or a cross between a 6l6 and a 6550,if you prefer)...in fact,to my ears,the electro-harmonix 6ca7 doesn't sound as midrangey as the electro-harmonix el34!

[mac1amps]

If you're going by what you've heard in one comparison situation, I can understand why you've come to those conclusions, especially since you're making that comparison with tubes made by the same manufacturer. Nonetheless, what it still comes down to is that 6CA7 is the U.S. name, and EL34 is the U.K. name, of THE SAME TUBE (just like saying 12AX7, as opposed to ECC83; or 6BQ5 instead of EL84)......Yes, either Ampegs OR Hiwatts don't have the gain to utilize a master volume, they cater to [what I would call] an "old school" style player that doesn't rely on lead/rhythm channel switching amps. If you're in an environment where you can turn the amp up [without blowing people away with volume], they have much more dynamics (the master volume on a DR504 Hiwatt should be on "10" ALWAYS, otherwise you're choking off the power tubes of any tone). Then again, if you're going for Metal degree break-up. I would move on as well.

[ironfly]

so you think that,yes:sometimes,a 6ca7 can sound less midrangey,less compressed than an el34,but this doesn't imply they belong to different tube families?
and what about 7027s?do you think they sound closer to 6l6s?

[mac1amps]

I really think you're basing too much on the tube model, and not taking into account the amps they're being used with. An early Music Man (for instance), sounds nothing like a plexi, even though they both use EL34/ 6CA7's. Ampeg was [virtually] the only guitar amp company to use 7027A's in a mass-produced amp, so I hesitate to make generalizations on their sound character when I haven't heard their operation with alternate designs. At the same time, during the years of no 7027A production, many folk had their V4's, etc. "converted" to accept either EL34's or 6L6's. I still recall many of these units retaining alot of the characteristic "Ampeg Mid-Range" that they're known for. Sure, there were differences, but by no means drastic (assuming that the "conversion" was executed properly). It really comes down to trial & error, especially when you take into account your particular amp/guitar/speaker/playing technique/(effects) combination.

[ironfly]

Both Rolling Stones and Queens of the Stone Age use VT-22s but with quite different results in distortion...it could depend on the QOTSA downtunings but also on a different choice of tubes,i think!
It's true that hiwatts,plexis or musicman amps all have their own peculiar sound but you'll admit that it DOES exist a "6l6 sound" or an "el34 sound",too...and a 6l6 amp is by no means confusable with an el34 amp!

[Enzo]

I think without looking at what pickups they use, what floor effects such as overdrives and fuzztones, and what the preamp tubes are, and how hard the amps are driven, I don't think the difference between EL34 and 6CA7 matters much.

6CA7 is the AMerican version of the EL34, and vice versa. The 6CA7 came in a larger glass bottle, same size and shape as a 6L6, while the European EL34 came in the narrow straight sided tube. Are there subtle differences between them? Yes. Are there subtle differences between EL34s from Svetlana, SOvtek, EH, and anyone else you care to include? Yes. Are those differences as large as the ones between EL34 (pick any brand) and 6CA7? Yes. In other words, if you went from a JJ EL34 to a Svetlana EL34, you would hear about the same amount of difference as if you went from the JJ to a 6CA7. They are all variants on the same tube. Open up the RCA tube manual to 6CA7 and you will see "6CA7/EL34."

COmparing a "6L6 amp" with an "EL34 amp" is pretty meaningless unless you are comparing the exact same amp with the two different tubes installed. COmparing a 6L6 based Fender Twin to an EL34 based MArshall is hardly about the power tube choice. Is there a difference in the overall tone of the two tubes? Yes. But it is not as simple as 6L6 amp and EL34 amp.

Do 6L6 and EL34 sound different? Yes. But again, it matters a lot what circuits they are in, and how they are played. Differences in power tubes show up a lot more when an amp is fully cranked, and a lot less when it is played at lower levels for example.

[ironfly]

Does the new (and old) JJ kt77 belong to the el34/6ca7 family,too?
Which of these three tubes gets closer to the 6L6/6550 grinding,uncompressed break up?

[David Schwab]

I'm always amused by the new fascination with old Ampeg guitar amps, because I remember guitar players generally not liking them back in the 70's because they were too clean sounding. Everett Hull hated loud rock music and distortion. The old Geminis and Rockets were cool. The B-15 was a nice bass amp for studio use, but it wasn't loud enough to play with a drummer (I had a B-15 N).

As far as the Stones, Keith Richards has always had a 1957 Fender Twin. Other road amps include a Marshall head & Fender 4x10 Bassman from 1956. Fenders are used for clean sounds, Marshalls for dirty sounds. Keith almost always plays through 2 amps at once, one distorted and one cleaner. He's also used Vox amps in the studio.

“I’ve always found that a really good distortion needs to come from two different places. You want some distortion and some clarity at the same time where you need it, so I’d rather put my guitar through two amps and overload one of them.”

Ampeg gave the stones some SVT's when they came out for a tour. They used them for guitar also.

[ironfly]

i've read somewhere that keith and mick taylor used vt-22s on let it bleed,get yer ya ya,sticky fingers and exile!

[vg3000]

They [Stones] used all sorts of amps in the studio and still do. Their flirtation with Ampegs started in the late 60's. I believe the first album that had them was Let it Bleed. But I recall it was an older model used on a track or two.
Mick Taylor still uses VT's (I believe 40's).

I agree with the above, your best bet would be a VT-40 or V-2. They are both one in the same. The VT-22 is way too much unless you're playing stadiums. The VT-40/V-2 is petty much too loud for club venues more a mid size venue amp. I use my 40's these days for cleans only in small clubs. Occasionally I put a TS-808 in front when doing something where I'm needed to get that SRV vibe out with a strat.

The V-2 was a head, VT-40 a 4x10 combo. I prefer the VT-40 (top mount but I also have a front mount pre distortion control series). It's the "poor mans" Fender Super Reverb. It really is. Sounds just like one but with a lot more tone features. It has a mid boost-cut (active) and several eq rocker switches that in total get you quite a few amps in one. There's an intensity rocker that gets you more or less headroom. I've paired these up with 4x10 Jensen's and the tone is to die for. I picked mine up when they were still going for junk yard prices. Maybe you can still come across one on the cheap?

They were well over built for sure and weigh as such. The VT-22 will break your back. My friend has a V4 (the head, uses for bass) and that alone is a pain in the ass to lug around to gigs.

I don't find them to be mid-rangey at all. You can dial it in or out if you want. Cut the mids a bit and you got a Super Reverb. With the mid boosted and ran clean you can get a very convincing Vox vibe going. With the intensity set to have less headroom and with the mid boosted your in Marshall land. Run a 4x12 closed back on the side and you have all your bases covered. Maybe one of the most versatile vintage tube amps to be had.

Predates Line 6 by over 30 years and it has real tubes.