JJ 6L6GCs... WTF?

[bob p]

I remember being a little put off that they could make such a good and affordable amp when I took such great pains to make mine. The Orange Terror amps are all really good designs. And FWIW the Terror amp circuits weren't known at that time. I didn't copy ANYTHING from the TT. Any similarities are coincidence.

As they say, great minds think alike. Chuck, you should think of this as a compliment -- maybe somebody at Orange has been reading your posts.

[catstrat]

I can tell you that i've had my share of bad luck with JJ output tubes in general. Their pre amp tubes seem ok but i have ran into an abnormally high rate of bad output tubes, both 6L6s and EL 34s.Their EL 84s seem ok. I don't even use output tubes from them anymore.It does seem though if you can get some good ones,they sound really good but i think their QC is all over the place. Some J J tubes are good, others not so good.

[Tone Meister]

NEWS FLASH!

I have some great news.

After feeding back through proper channels, I have been contacted directly by two different VPs at CE Distribution, Mike Klassy, VP of Operations and Orin Portnoy, VP of Sales and Marketing. I can tell you that you can expect a major policy change coming for CE Dist with regard to dealing with pre-screening and matching tubes before shipment and dealing with returns of defective tubes. I had them read this thread and other threads on various other forums and they have expressed a deep concern and have pledged to make this right.

Bruce, you can expect a phone call today from Mike Klassy to resolve the bad tubes you've received.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I have some great news.

After feeding back through proper channels, I have been contacted directly by two different VPs at CE Distribution, Mike Klassy, VP of Operations and Orin Portnoy, VP of Sales and Marketing. I can tell you that you can expect a major policy change coming for CE Dist with regard to dealing with pre-screening and matching tubes before shipment and dealing with returns of defective tubes. I had them read this thread and other threads on various other forums and they have expressed a deep concern and have pledged to make this right.

Bruce, you can expect a phone call today from Mike Klassy to resolve the bad tubes you've received.

That is great news.... I'll be back in the shop tomorrow.
It wasn't just the 6L6s.... the 6V6s were junky too.
And yes CE Dist did accept all my returned tubes and refunded me... I wish I could have sent them all back but my conscience would not let me make them take the ones that left my shop and came back a couple-three weeks later.

[Tone Meister]

This is just a preview of good things to come. I spent more than an hour on the phone with Sam, Orin, and Mike today, and I am supremely confident this is going to bring about changes we will all welcome there at CE Distribution. Both Mike Klassy and Orin Portnoy are class individuals and I have zero doubt this will end up as a win win.

[bob p]

I'm glad to hear it. But I'm also scratching my head about something.

How is it that JJ big bottles can enjoy such a good reputation in some circles, and be regarded as defective junk in others? It has to have something to do with the selection process.

If you check out the bass sites, JJ has a great reputation in tube bass amps. Both the 6L6 and the 6550 enjoy a great reputation, and some major amp manufacturers like Ampeg are even spec'ing the JJ bottles in their current production amps. These manufacturers can't afford to get a black eye from bad tubes, so they're either screening them themselves, or they've got an agreement with the factory that gets them tubes that are known to be good.

That makes me wonder what happens to the rejects. In a perfect world, the factory would destroy them rather than try to pass them off on someone else, and every intermediate level distributor would check the tubes to make sure they're not passing defective merchandise to their wholesale & retail customers.

It's good to hear that the situation seems to be improving. It would be interesting to know, though, where in the supply chain the problem really originated.

[Chuck H]

That's AMAZING! Nice work Tone!!! The idea that one voice can (would) demonstrate the reality to a major distributor and get results was unfathomable to me before reading your post. I need a hanky to wipe away the tear (not really, but not being sarcastic). Kudos for posting other forum threads and getting the attention. Absolutely capitol perseverance. Someone owes you six beers. What's your brand?

[Chuck H]

I have to assume the supply chain problem was with CED. The tubes they were getting were readily accepted and cheaper batches were available. That or the same expense only bought the cheaper batches than the ones they were buying before. It's all about the bottom line in a distribution business. Once they learn that they may lose customers due to quality issues they need to face the idea of taking a lower profit margin or losing huge chunks of customer base. We just got caught in the crossfire. Just a guess but I'll bet I'm right on this.

[Tone Meister]

Chuck,
To clarify, I never personally started any threads in any other forums about these issues. But, I did run across several such threads which I had Mike and Orin go read, and that independent information lent credibility to the negative feedback they were getting from me --they realized the problems were indeed widespread and not isolated to just a handful of customers.

I can't speak to where the supply chain issues originate, but I will repeat a significant claim I was told yesterday that will only fuel more speculation unless one of the subjects comes here to clarify. Both Mojotone and Eurotubes source their JJ tubes from CE Distibution, according to Mike Klassy. Without irrefutable evidence to back that up that claim I can't offer that as the absolute truth, but you have to admit that the mere thought of it does set the mind to whirling.

I told Mike that in more than 15 years I had never had a bad tube from Mojotone or from Eurotubes and that each was well regarded in the service/repair/amp builder community for supplying reliable and well-matched tube sets. I pointed out that the only real differences between those suppliers and CE Distribution are these:

1. Eurotubes tests its tubes rigorously before matching, then charges retail pricing for its product. Many, many folks find the upcharge well worth it in the long run since tubes from Eurotubes have proven consistently reliable year after year.
   
2. Mojotone also pre-screens and burns in its tubes when you pay to have them matched. If you have a dealer account at Mojo and buy matched sets, which will then be screened and burned in, the final price is within pennies of what CE Dist charges it dealers.
   
3. CE Distribution offers matched sets but charges extra to burn in its tubes, which brings the total price higher than Mojo but less than Eurotubes

So, in speaking with Mike and Orin I asked them to review the current screening and matching process there at CE Distribution and to consider changing the return policy to one that didn't kill us little guys. Then I asked them to keep the prices from going up as a result. I won't post Mike's exact reply here, but I can tell you that "the customer service department has already been re-trained on the issue with microphonic power tubes and that returns on power tubes will be accepted for noise issues in all cases going forward." [paraphrase]

I am happy with the speed and diligence with which Sam, Mike, and Orin have dealt with this issue. At this point I can't ask for any more verbal commitment from them, so the only thing to do now is see how things play out in the future.

[km6xz]

So where are all the bad tubes coming from, is no one testing them on the production end? Who is buying them to pass them on without hearing the howls of anguish for wasting so much money on junk? I can't believe that this is the first these guys have heard of their policy losing them customers. If they are testing at all, are they eating the high percentage of drop out tubes or selling them as un-graded to unsuspecting buyers after failing tests. For them not to know about the high degree of microphonics that render tubes unusable is hard to accept also. It sounds more like a bit of happy talk pr going on. Maybe there is going to be more selective distribution, such as not giving fall outs to the shops who post much on the forums.

The whole point of testing is to find out if the product is suitable for sale. Since they offer the testing for a higher price, they have to know that 1) they have a problem and ignore it, or 2) they know they have a problem and simply sell them to those who do not specify testing or matching, in either case they have to know a goodly number of JJ tubes are bunk.

If a distributor does not accept returns when a product they sell is not what it is claimed to be, I suppose some state attorney general would be interested in the fraud taking place. If they were selling cell phones that did not communicate or light bulbs that did not light, and refused to replace them it should be an automatic response to go so some other seller after reporting them.
Ask them if they warrant their products to meet minimum specifications for the product label? A standard 6L6 does not have loose elements. If they want to sell it as something else that does not imply a minimum level of conformance, they can but they can't call it a 6L6.

[Tom Phillips]

...I can't speak to where the supply chain issues originate, but I will repeat a significant claim I was told yesterday that will only fuel more speculation unless one of the subjects comes here to clarify. Both Mojotone and Eurotubes source their JJ tubes from CE Distibution, according to Mike Klassy. ...

Now that's an interesting claim you were told. The Eurotubes page at Eurotubes - Beginning and Mission, talks about Bob Pletka's personal relationship with the JJ factory and implies that he became an "importer" of the JJ tubes.

[Chuck H]

A standard 6L6 does not have loose elements. If they want to sell it as something else that does not imply a minimum level of conformance, they can but they can't call it a 6L6.

Well... If we get semantic about it I don't remember any 6l6 data sheet expressly stating that the tube should NOT be microphonic or have loose elements !?! Many of those microphonic tubes would perform fine in head type amps but fail miserably in combos. And, FWIW, I have some brand new Ruby's in an amp right now that hash and rattle on D notes and make some other ugly microphonic noise. AFAIK Ruby is a much trusted distributor.

[Tone Meister]

Now that's an interesting claim you were told. The Eurotubes page at Eurotubes - Beginning and Mission, talks about Bob Pletka's personal relationship with the JJ factory and implies that he became an "importer" of the JJ tubes.

Which is the very reason I was very careful in the way I worded my statement. But Mike Klassy did tell me that yesterday, rather matter of factually, and since I do not know the truth I left myself an out. One thing is for certain and that is I did not misunderstand what Mr. Klassy said, nor did I misrepresent it in any way. There's certainly more here than meets the eye, because CE has privately declined my suggestion to come on the forums with a user account and set this straight publicly. I think Stan makes some great points in his post.

[km6xz]

If you got some bad tubes out of the box, send them back and get replacements.

Tubes do have acceleration and altitude specs, when you get the full spec sheets and the envelope of parameters under which the tube is supposed to meet specs, are not met when they are microphonic, up to the shock value they are specified for. It is an important spec for some types of tube applications such as oscillators and mobile systems. For two way radio, low microphonic high acceleration rate types of tubes were needed. A lot of military applications needed tubes that required were able to maintain strict specs for ruggedness and resistance to microphonics.
But now none of the makers of tubes have testing equipment for any specs so they much rely on customers to be the testers and accept their fall out tubes for return. If they don't, don't buy from them unless it is so much cheaper that it makes sense to build up your own test routines and absorb the bad tubes.

[bob p]

The 6L6 designation used to actually mean something when RCA was enforcing it's trademark. Back then other suppliers of 6L6 had to meet RCA's rigid performance specs or they couldn't license the trademark to market their product as a 6L6. Unfortunately, the USPTO no longer lists 6L6 as a an active trademark, and now anyone is free to use the term when labelling their product. Without RCA's enforcement the term "6L6" doesn't mean what it used to mean. There's not really any validity in remembering what RCA specs used to mean, and projecting those specifications and expectations onto a current production product. To do that amounts to wishful thinking. Now that RCA is out of the business the 6L6 standard no longer has an enforcing body to ensure strict compliance with the old specification. The result is that anyone can sell something that's meant to be 6L6-like under the 6L6 designation and there's no trademark owner to swat them if the quality control isn't up to snuff.