Sinorussotubeaphobia

[fredcapo]

I always thought that news tubes were mostly inferior, and as a player/hobbyist I always used nos tubes for my amps. Now that I am in the repair business, albeit a very small fish, after following these posts, I don't know how to proceed, if,for example, I need a quad of power tubes for a customer. I can't recommend nos or used tested old stock tubes to everyone.

Can someone recommend a source for tested and reliable (power) tubes?

Otherise, is there any way this board can set up a sticky where authorized posters can post advisories, without libeling themselves, based on their recent experiences? I enjoy reading the threads, but it would be nice if there was a "Consumer Reports" type of resource available. Thanks.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Sinorussotubeaphobia now there's a portmanteau word for ya! Expand to Sinorussoslovakotubeaphobia and you have it ALL covered.

Sadly no one source gets 'em all right. I've had good luck with JJ EL84, 6V6, and KT88. Also SELECTED HG+ rated 12AX7 from Ruby but at a price... JJ 12AX's that don't make geiger counter noises or hum, I luv 'em because the sound between the notes - fades to black. Very quiet, the good ones. And not even all the HG+ rated ones do that. I'm trying out a batch of JJ 12AT7, let's see how that works out.

Got the last of 12AX7VKA from CE, sorry all out after this. Sam at CE told me yesterday that the booteek builders discovered these a couple months ago and plundered CE's stock, 200, 300, 500 at a time. Again, not every one a winner, but a Russian made tube (Voskhorod) that somehow escaped New Sensor's clutches. Sam said the factory is now kaput. Looking inside, they resemble Sovtek an awful lot. What they really were, and what the real story is, who knows. Now unobtainium.

Chinese Shuguang 12AX7A I got from Magic/Ruby, premium HG+ tested also, were pretty good but had a high frequency "ping" that made 'em sound like someone was hitting a sleigh bell with the pick attack of every note. And sometimes continued as a longer hi frequency ring that was downright annoying. If you have a "dark" sounding amp, these may be just the thing to brighten it up. Or not. I've also been getting 6L6GC MSTR, EL34B MSTR, EL34BHT Shuggies from Magic/Ruby, mostly good, sometimes a rattly or low-pitch ringing or howling one. And Stan says, the 5AR4/GZ34 from Ruby is currently the one to beat. I've had maybe 2 breakdowns in a couple years.

Then there's an avalanche of tubes from New Sensor, labeled Sovtek, Electro-Harmonix, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Genelex Gold Lion, and probably a few more. You've seen the travails some of our MEF correspondents have had with TS 12AX7. I need not repeat. See for yourself. Whether there's any "real" quality difference between these lines, I can't say because I avoid all of 'em. Especially the premium priced ones. I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME - on New Sensor's tube lines. Gotta hand it to the boss though, he's a marketing genius. Buy the right to use trademarks from some of the most trusted tube manufacturers, now long out of business, and paint 'em on the s.o.s., charge a lot, convince the emperor his new clothes look fabulous, and skip on to the next game.

CE/Antique/AmplifiedParts now have a policy, if we sell you a microphonic tube, you're stuck with it. Tough noogies. I suppose you could return unacceptable tubes without explanation and take a restocking fee hit of what 15 to 25% ? Lucky for me, I haven't had to deal with that. Yet.

Eurotubes sell exclusively JJ. There was a lively discussion on these pages a couple months ago. It appears to get good 6L6 and EL34 JJ's you have to get them from Euro. However that comes about, who cares. A couple of reports of success with a pair here, a quad there. Apparently there's no discount for commercial buyers, builders, repair shops. Everybody pays retail. Take it or leave it. As far as I know nobody yet has "hung the bell on the cat", bought batches of 6L6 & EL34 from Euro, and reported an incredible success. Meanwhile LOTS of laments from those who bought JJ 6L6 and EL34 or E34L from other sources and had trouble trouble trouble.

There are a couple of new things in the tube biz, Northern Electric 12AX7's at $60 apiece. Presumably these come from a different China manufacturer, and maybe they're the cat's ass, but at $60 I don't have the bread to experiment and neither do any of my customers.

Fading over the horizon, the real Svetlana, marketed in USA as =C=, winged C or flying C. Stan reported months ago that their St Petersburg Russia plant quit making receiving tubes and all stocks sold off. If you can find some good ones, fine. If you buy new ones, and they're no good, what distributor is going to back your purchase by plundering their dwindling and therefore more valuable by the minute stash.

Comments on another website from a tube bash @ 2009, one old timer says back in the 50's 60's 70's it was the same thing, and just about all tubes were USA, UK, Germany or Netherlands built. (Or more rarely Hungary, India, Brazil, Japan or Australia.) Companies buying tubes from other companies and labeling as their own was common. Quality control lapses, all the rest. 'Twas ever thus.

FWIW some of my customers insist on buying their own. For them, of course I cannot guarantee the tubes they supply will work, new or later on. If they have a problem, they have to take it on with whoever they bought 'em from.

Also, I avoid selling tubes not part of a repair or service. If a tube I sell is going to be troublesome I'd like it to happen here so I can swap it out right away without the customer going into a panic, or getting a bad attitude because it's taking up HIS time and mileage. If at all possible, I like to run the amp with its new tube(s) for at least a day before sending it out the door. For preamp tubes, at least plug 'em in and have a listen over the course of a couple minutes to make sure there's nothing funky going on. Sometimes there's a fault in an amp and Mr. Customer thinks swapping in a new tube, or set of tubes, will help. Works sometimes, and sometimes not. There's no time to audition every tube that arrives from Magic or CE or Mojo or anywhere else, so I can't be 100% sure a new tube will actually be good regardless of any guarantees or assurances from the job-dealer. And as Saint Walter said, "That's the way it is."

[fredcapo]

Leo, Thanks. That gives me something to work with. Unless I find a few more RCA/GE packed Wurlitzer organs (have been lucky recently), I'm going to need to start buying new product.

Still, although it may be cumbersome, it would be neat if, say, there could be a table or ballot set up, with each tube type/manufacturer/distributor entered on a line, and authorized members could "vote" based on recent experience. It would have to be adaptive to changing conditions in the tube market.

[km6xz]

I import selected types from China and have pretty good luck with them, particularly the 12AX7s which tend to be the quietest and best balanced of the few types available. I have never been a fan of New Sensor for various reasons but since they are the only readily available power tubes here with a corporate office here in St Petersburg, I have settled on the Electro-Harmonix 6L6 and EL34 and after using my last Svetlana(СЕД )6550 set, their 6550's also and have been pleasantly surprised how none have blown up or otherwise failed in a repair since the switch. I will not use JJ, they are too flaky, very microphonic power tubes. One brand of Russian made amps named Yerasov, equips their new units with JJ and almost 1/2 of all my repairs on that brand are brand new units out of the box where the tubes failed on first use. None of the stores stock any more than 1 or 2 tubes in their display cases so people are getting tubes mail order or from me locally. I have turned over the tube import, testing and branding to two girls who are into it now. One is a graduate EE and the other is an expert in control systems, but the real reason they got that small business essentially given to them is because they are both really cute, and nice people.
My luck with EH 12AX7s has been horrid, terrible bad-out-of-the-box record. I get the 12 lots of 12-20(is is amazing how many people insist on changing all tubes so often, against my recommendation) and more than 1/2 have problems....no more EH and no JJ so that leaves Chinese the ones I buy in bulk labeled with our label but untested. I requested the lower cost untested because I was going to grade them myself and the fall out rate is very good.
If an amp comes in that does not need really high gain 6L6's I prefer putting in the semi-5881 old Soviet era 6п3С-е which to be bullet proof but lower gain. If you see tubes marked various brands, and 6L6 without a plastic or phenolic base it is probably a rebanded old Soviet surplus tube and probably quite quite but lower in gain. Buying those and remarking them is how Sovtek, GrooveTube(probably the most overrated brand going, mostly hype from a master salesman) and a number of "brands" got started.
New Sensor started with the Sovtek brand and later acquired Electro-Harmonics, and more recently revered names like Mullard, Tung-Sol and the oldest of the industry, Svetlana which was, at one time, the largest tube and light bulb maker in the world and is still in business. How Mike Mathews captured that name is still breeding bad feelings on both sides of the Atlantic. Without a doubt, the best tubes since the early 70s in small tubes(under 50 watts dissipation) has been Svetlana but in the 50's had a lot of US companies on top of the quality heap. Mullard and Telefunken were highly regarded also. Each had some standouts that were licensed to other companies to ensure a manufacturer of finished goods was never stuck with a sole source. In high power tubes where there is still a market, for high frequency RF power amplifiers, RF heaters(that are used in making tubes and semiconductors) and are quite another matter as to reliability and spec confirmation. So we know the technology is available to make a good tube but the mass market is not there to warrant anyone investing on the production facilities to do it.
So where to get tubes? Find a distributor who will accept warranty returns without a hassle. Eating the price of their failed tubes is a sure way to lose money in repair. A source that is $1-2 cheaper is not a bargain if they do not warranty their product. There are warranties and there are warranties. The only one that helps you is a "not questions asked" warranty where your word is enough. The advantage to the distributor is they get a loyal long term customer even of they have to eat a few returns. When I had the large shop we bought only from Tom at Magic parts, got good N col prices and no questions asked warranty. In fact we did not even have to send them in, he came by once a week or two to log the tubes we tossed into a "Ruby Warranty" bin and issue a credit. The tubes were used for qc tests to see what was happening to them.
Long before I had a salesman(back in the days when supply houses had field salesmen) who came once a week to scan the racks of tubes and HEP transistors and just replaced any that were low in stock. That was really common 30 years ago.
So develop your commercial relationships, they will be a good resource in many ways.
Price is not the best indicator of your true cost. If you are dealing with a distributor who requires a lot of explanation for any returns or documents, the time you waste is worth 10 times the cost difference between them and a fuller service supplier. The only time the money clock it ticking up is when you are on the bench, all other times, it is ticking backwards. Anything that allows you to spend more time on the bench is good.

[fredcapo]

I am not aware of a distributor as existed in the days when I was a youth, and used to weekly stock the tube wall of my uncles tv repair shop. Back then there were at least 3 local distributors of tubes. It was only a 5 minute or less drive to the authorized RCA distributor in Bloomfield NJ, and I would pass the Westinghouse, GE, and Tung-Sol Tube factories on the way... Tubes are pretty much a niche item, and I expect to only buy a few dozen. Up to this point, I have been buying supplies from random sources. Perhaps will have to find one or more primary distributors, though there seems to be a clear distinction between vintage/boutique supply and contemporary components. Thanks.

[km6xz]

Forget NOS or even used tubes for repair. If you have no reliable source for additional copies you will have an unhappy customer if every set has different performance and if one of the of the $50 NOS tubes fails and they are used to how their amp sounds you might not beable to get it sound the same again. Inert gas infiltration is inevitable so the shelf life of tubes is limited so NOS are too expensive and not consistent enough for repair work. They are fine if someone on their own invests a few hundred on a pair of NOS or old pulls but expecting them to be like their former selves before sitting in gear or in a warehouse for 50 years is wishful thinking. The user will of course talk themselves into thinking they are great, hi-end hi-fi depends on the self delusion as the key sales tool, but if you get involved with that fantasy stuff you become responsible for their delusions. Don't feed into that. Not unless you are primarily a salesman and what to sell dreams instead of repairing amps to be more reliable and functional than they came in.
The high end component industry is identical to the cosmetic industry, with the same sales pitches and same high mark up with no objective or measurable difference. I had a high end dress store years ago and explored buying a line of cosmetics for branding so explored that industry, the players and products of higher end cosmetics. Most of it is populated by the same sort of people who sell $3500 IEC boutique power cords and $500 titanium isolation cones. They seek and find will buyers who are begging to be lied to and charged spectacular prices for doing it.
Don't waste your time on tone chasers, they might call you a guru for a while but as soon as their delusions shift, you are a hack. Besides, they are almost all amateurs who won't be around long anyway, not working pros who make it their profession. Make an amp reliable and consistent and a working pro will be loyal. The majority of your customers will be hobbyists who are passing time for relaxation, fun and unwinding from the day job, they tend to be reasonable and realistic in their expectations.

[Enzo]

If you need to hang up a sign so you remember, do it today. Always remember this:

This is not rocket surgery, nothing we do is critical in nature.

These things are just amplifiers. Look at most any old Fender schematic, it tells you that readings are approximate and are OK within 20% either way. Our power supplies are not regulated, nor is the mains power we run off. A 480v B+ will vary 4 volts for every one volt the mains changes. Show me 100 players and I will show you their 100 different ideal tones. Actually I can;t. You can't either. Tube sellers will sell you power tubes graded on a scale of 10 as to gain or power draw or god-knows-what. You COULD look at that as the ability to fine tube your system. Or you could look at it as evidence tubes are all over the map, and yet someone finds every point on that map desirable. There is no gotta-be-this tube.

[km6xz]

To beat this thread further.....whatever your great work accomplishes in making it a god amp, they are going to put a dozen 741 opamps in front of it in freaking chained stompboxes and not change their active pickup battery for 2 years.


I had a guy come a couple months before I moved to Russia, complaining that his tone was not what it used to be so wanted high end transformers installed in his Marshall. I checked it and said it was performing up to spec and no different than any other JCM800 of that vintage. I asked him if there was anything new in his set up since he started hearing a difference, since I could not hear any difference. He said he would bring his cab and guitar. He did, but he also brought his two tiered peddle board with 21 series connected stomp boxes! He starting pointing out what was different since the sound got worse, 6 of the units were new additions. His battery eliminator was not rated for more than a couple digital effects or 12 analog boxes. That was 54 pot, switches and slider settings, plus ADCs, processors, clippers and probably 100 analog gain, phase shift and nonlinear stages, plus program settings that each be expected to change anything going through it.
Bottom line...You can't put yourself in a position of being responsible for his tone. It is a loser gig. If something is wrong, I mean electrically wrong, fix it but don't promise sonic traits that reside solely in his imagination.

Ever notice high end parts or boutique hi-end hi-fi or guitar amp salesmen never announce any measurements that show their product does anything? There is a reason, they can't measure the fantasies they instill in willing victi.... errr ah , "customers?

[fredcapo]

Stan,
Enzo,

Thanks for the advice. I hear you. I personally never fell for all the hype and fuss over boutique and other prissy toys that pervade the industry. I recognize substantive quality in a device, and as a repairman adhere to the principles that I learned during my career in the Bell System and dealing with KS spec components and systems. The only fault in that is sometimes I tend to over-spec.

I was reacting to what I have been reading here about problems with tube quality. I have been taking notes. Now just need to identify a distributor to buy a batch of tubes and other components. As I said, have been just buying stuff from random sources, and on eBay, as well as sorting thru the large stock of items I obtained from local sources over the years.

There are so many inferior quality products out there. It is truly becoming a throw-away business. Thanks.

[Steve Conner]

It's perfectly OK, they're NOS vintage 741s!

[fredcapo]

I actually have a bunch of mil/KS spec'd op amps in ceramic and/or can packages that probably would be pretty nice and quiet up front...

[jrfrond]

Keeping it short and to the point, when I made the slow switch over to JJ's, our tube reliability problems, for the most part, went away. Sure, we get an occasional stinker. That can happen with NOS USA tubes also (how quickly we all seem to forget). But I was having MAJOR issues with all New Sensor/Reflektor tubes, and my complaints fell on deaf ears, so I had to give JJ a try, starting with EL34's. Now, we AND our customers are VERY happy.

[km6xz]

Hi John, are you getting them directly from the factory or through a US distributor? After switching to EH, reluctantly, a year ago, not one has failed in a repaired unit yet my trash can fills with highly microphonic JJ's or that have element shorts. Maybe the supply chains are different enough that they are getting tested along the way, so your JJ distributor has already culled the trash before selling them. The 9 pin 12a*7's from New Sensor have been a disaster however.
I test a lot of incoming tubes on a curve tracer see more random curve families from JJ and NOS than my Chinese 12AX7s and EH 6L6, EL34 and 6550. Maybe the way to buy JJ is bulk, white box specials, or flats from the factory and test and grade for those of us in areas that have no distributor who will test or stand behind their products.

[Leo_Gnardo]

when I made the slow switch over to JJ's, our tube reliability problems, for the most part, went away.

From Eurotubes or another supplier? There was a lively discussion on these pages a couple months ago, and it seemed to lead to Euro as the supplier of reliably good 6L6 and E34L/EL34 JJ in the USA. Haven't tried them yet as apparently they do not offer a discount to repair shops, manufacturers or quantity buyers. Thanx in advance for your answer John!

[soundmasterg]

From Eurotubes or another supplier? There was a lively discussion on these pages a couple months ago, and it seemed to lead to Euro as the supplier of reliably good 6L6 and E34L/EL34 JJ in the USA. Haven't tried them yet as apparently they do not offer a discount to repair shops, manufacturers or quantity buyers. Thanx in advance for your answer John!

I get my JJ's from Eurotubes....since they are local to me the higher price over CE is moot since I don't have to pay shipping...I've never got a bad tube from Eurotubes over 5 years...but then I don't get them in huge quantities. Many of the local blues musicians also get their tubes from Eurotubes with no issues.

Greg