Any hope for new tube designs?

[Pixel]

Tubes are still being made in Russia and China but these are work-alikes for old tube designs aren't they?

Is there any chance of new tubes coming out to fix "problems" that are requiring solutions like attenuators?

[Helmholtz]

Is there any chance of new tubes coming out to fix "problems" that are requiring solutions like attenuators?

What kind of problems do you mean?

[Enzo]

Is it really a problem? It is VERY unlikely new tube designs will emerge. There is just a TINY market for tubes in the first place. Some places like JJ might come up with another variation on a dual triode, but that is about it. They already make ECC832 and ECC823. If there became a demand they might make ECC831 or something. Or stick 6L6 guts into a smaller tube and call it a super 6V6 or something.

I am not sure what problem attenuators make for tubes. People using attenuators do use more tubes, but the reason is simple. You use an attenuator so you can crank an amp to max out and then tone it down for the speaker. Well, using tubes at max out versus half way up of course wears them out. Not the tube's fault.

Put it in perspective. Almost 40 million TV sets are sold in the USA each year. Guitar amps a little over half a million, and that includes solid state amp, which are the majority.

[Pixel]

What kind of problems do you mean?

I am just trying to understand how to look at tubes. I can see a progression across different types of tubes and then development stops abruptly probably due to the transistor.

If tubes were still being developed then perhaps instead of an attenuator you would have a tube that has the desired behaviour without producing gobs of power you don't want. It just seems like a lot of effort goes into attenuators and thats due to how power tubes work, isn't it?

[Helmholtz]

If tubes were still being developed then perhaps instead of an attenuator you would have a tube that has the desired behaviour without producing gobs of power you don't want. It just seems like a lot of effort goes into attenuators and thats due to how power tubes work, isn't it?

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

High power power tubes exist because there is/was a demand for high power amps and lots of sound level.

If you want low power and power amp saturation, use smaller tubes and low plate and screen voltages.

So it's all there and boils down to a circuit design problem - not a tube problem.

As a player I don't feel comfortable with a 20W or lower amp in a band context.

But it's no real problem to design a great sounding 1W tube amp (for bedroom players) with existing tubes.

Attenuators make sense when you occasionally need to lower the sound level of a (dimed) high power amp.

[Enzo]

Keep in mind vacuum tubes were a mature technology over 80 years ago. Before World War 2, they had radar, they had color TV. Not widespread, but color TV nonetheless, and all with tubes. There were all manner of tubes.. Transistors came along in 1947, and a little later commercial transistors arrived. Tube makers tried. Nuvistors were developed. They were tiny tubes in metal cans, barely larger than transistors. But they were mainly used in TV tuners for UHF signals. Those triple triodes were a later approach to lowering tube count.

A power tube with built in overdrive characteristics? That would be an EXTREMELY narrow focus for a product.

[pdf64]

On the other hand, there’s the recently introduced KT120 and 150. So the driver seems to be bigger, not smaller.

[Pixel]

Attenuators make sense when you occasionally need to lower the sound level of a (dimed) high power amp.

Thanks for that. I was under the incorrect assumption that you needed the (dimed) high power amp in order to get to that toney goodness trapped in the tube.

[Chuck H]

Operating tubes at lower voltages is a very effective means of reducing a power tubes max output before clipping. This is why VVR/power scaling circuits are popular.

[Helmholtz]

Operating tubes at lower voltages is a very effective means of reducing a power tubes max output before clipping.

Yes, as mentioned above.

But I think the misconception was that attenuators would produce a sound not otherwise available from a tube amp.
In reality attenuators at best don't change the amp's sound, but reduce power and sound level.

[Pixel]

Yes, as mentioned above.

But I think the misconception was that attenuators would produce a sound not otherwise available from a tube amp.
In reality attenuators at best don't change the amp's sound, but reduce power and sound level.

My misconception was that I thought you needed big power tubes working full out at screaming high voltages through real speakers in order to get good sound. So I wondered if new tubes could do away with the need for attenuators at all.

[g1]

There are small amps available that get those kinds of tones at low power levels. Like the little 1Watt Marshalls that are fairly new, or other low power equivalents. Or even smaller amps that use preamp tubes as power tubes. They do, in effect, do away with the need for attenuators.
So those tubes do already exist,it's just that they leave you in a position where you can't compete with the drummer. That's basically where the higher power stuff comes from. And that early on, PA systems were not sophisticated to the point where everyone was mic'd. So the guitar amp had to fill the bigger rooms without any help.

[Helmholtz]

But it should also be mentioned that there is no real substitute for playing loud.
It makes speakers and guitar respond differently, increases sustain and allows for nice feedback.

[Chuck H]

There are small amps available that get those kinds of tones at low power levels. Like the little 1Watt Marshalls that are fairly new, or other low power equivalents. Or even smaller amps that use preamp tubes as power tubes. They do, in effect, do away with the need for attenuators.
So those tubes do already exist,it's just that they leave you in a position where you can't compete with the drummer. That's basically where the higher power stuff comes from. And that early on, PA systems were not sophisticated to the point where everyone was mic'd. So the guitar amp had to fill the bigger rooms without any help.

AND... Some of what's available tonally to a player at higher volumes is not available at lower volumes. Even with the same clipping levels. Acoustic feedback (harmonic responses from the guitar amp interaction) and the human ears natural tendency to quickly recognize and then compress peaks as well as alterations in EQ perception (Fletcher Munson) disappears when the volume is low. These things simply cannot be had at lower volume no matter what you do to an amp.

[Helmholtz]

AND... Some of what's available tonally to a player at higher volumes is not available at lower volumes. Even with the same clipping levels. Acoustic feedback (harmonic responses from the guitar amp interaction) and the human ears natural tendency to quickly recognize and then compress peaks as well as alterations in EQ perception (Fletcher Munson) disappears when the volume is low. These things simply cannot be had at lower volume no matter what you do to an amp.

See above .