Best way to custom 'balance' levels in an effects chain

[Audiotexan]

After finally settling on the majority of a lineup of pedals that I plan on keeping long-term, I've run into some *noticeable* level issues in a "mostly on" and definitely so in an "all on" situation. (Granted, the latter's gonna be exceptionally rare, but... *possible* in some circumstance -with compressor/delay exceptions.) Currently: roughly double the output level when "all on" opposed to only 2-3-4 on.

Wondering what the best overall methodology ya'll have found or might suggest for getting an even level throughout the chain (assuming of course the keys lie in matching input impedances as well as levels -both input and output) whether you're using one pedal or a majority of them simultaneously.

As much as I love the convenience of the "all-in-one" effects racks, it's just NOT possible to get the same "love" from an effects rack, as what you do from the real thing (the pedal they're trying to simulate/emulate). Though I can definitely appreciate not having to deal with what I'm currently faced with, I've grown tired of getting "close" to "that sound".

These are all being switched via Digital Music Ground Control Pro and GCX's. Mentioned due to the GCX "loading" of each pedal (as opposed to the previous pedal "directly" loading the next). I'm half expecting it to be a uniform/expected load on each, thereby making things "easier", and just having to "calculate/calibrate each pedal" to it. Though if it IS "true-bypass" and it's just a relay in between...wouldn't the previous load be seen on the next pedal, and the GCX 'removed' from the equation? Ugh. Here I go again, thinking myself in circles. >.<


The chain is primarily:

one of the following compressors:

DOD 525-A compressor (just added today, may replace CO-04)
Vesta Fire CMP compressor (*phenomenal* for clean tones)
Pearl CO-04 compressor (best used with dirt/dist.)

then into one of the OD/Dist. boxes

Nady/Guyatone TO-2 Tube overdrive
Ibanez TS-9 Analogman Silver/Brown mod
MXR Distortion III

then into:

MXR Carbon Copy (long)
DOD 585-A Delay (short)
Ross Stereo Delay (medium) *definite problem child level-wise*

then:

Ross Phaser v2 (AM97C10CN) *definite level issues here too*
Boss BF-2 v1
In-Line Effects XE-600 Stereo Chorus (GREAT vibe sound)
Ibanez CS-505 Chorus (better than a TC Electronics S.C.F. IMO, sold my SCF as a result!)


I know that there's an issue by default when mixing vintage with 'new' primarily due to buffers becoming a common-place, but I'm also looking at just basic level differences between companies.

I believe most of my issues lie in the modulation areas, with the noteable exception of the Ross Stereo Delay which is famous for having level issues...but I notice the most bump in signal when several modulation units are active at the same time.

Your thoughts and input for a uniform method of attack would be appreciated! Especially if you've had to do this previously for your own/client's rig!

[Audiotexan]

Your thoughts and input for a uniform method of attack would be appreciated! Especially if you've had to do this previously for your own/client's rig!

Ok... so either I've worn out my welcome here, or I was way too long-winded to bother reading.


Basically all I was looking for was:

1. Would it be better to adjust things on the front end of a given effect?
(eg: 1 meg on the first pedal, 10k on the rest?)

2. Better to adjust things on the output side?
(eg: shoot for <arbitrary number> .5vac signal out)

Or a bit of both:
1. set each pedal's signal out to ".5vac"
2. adjust the next pedal's input as appropriate...

[J M Fahey]

C'mon Audiotexan, nothing of that sort, simply that the description raises so many doubts that is almost unanswerable.

Do you think somebody else has those exact same 13 pedals, all together and connected at the same time?

To boot switching/matrixing them with

Digital Music Ground Control Pro and GCX's

I don't even know what you're talking about, much less suggest anything intelligent or useful.

Of course I might search and download all 15 user manuals (if available), probably a few schematics just to know what's cooking inside and then read a few hundred related posts in Harmony Central, My Les Paul, the Marshall Forum, etc. to check what others think.

Fat chance.

So all I can suggest, in good faith, is to apply the "KISS" principle, and set all pedals OFF, then set them one by one on to unity gain, off ; then another on, set to unity gain, off and so on.
Only way to minimize variables and avoid surprises.

[oc disorder]

Think you'll end up goin' the whole hog Mr Texan .. it's an ear thing .. wot about knockin up a couple of adjustable tube buffers 2 halves in the one tube so
either 4 or with eq 2 ? Experiment is the only way ...

"We later extended this idea to effects systems by including a similar design of tube buffer amp between each effect and the next so that the effect “thinks” it is plugged directly into the amp and responds as if it were the only effect in line, as in the solid state versions. In the all tube effects systems each effect ACTUALLY IS connected to a tube whereas in the solid state version it only THINKS it is."

http://www.petecornish.co.uk/fxboards.html

[J M Fahey]

Wow!!!
Never thought I'd read such a thing coming from Mr Cornish!!!!
Oh well, maybe he's late on a couple mortgage payments and he needs to justify charging U$15000 for a pedalboard.

Live and learn.

Meanwhile, I'll file that page together with Dumble's comment :

The difference comes down to this... umm, the more fragile harmonics can survive in a vacuum tube; where they seem to be, ah, eliminated or squashed in a solid state crystal lattice. I think it comes down to that. The physics of it... electrons can survive in a free space vacuum where they have trouble in a crystal lattice. I think that's the best and simplest I can put it.

[Audiotexan]

C'mon Audiotexan, nothing of that sort, simply that the description raises so many doubts that is almost unanswerable.

Thanks Juan, that's a load off! lol
So it was my usual "lack of *effective* communication.."

Do you think somebody else has those exact same 13 pedals, all together and connected at the same time?

To boot switching/matrixing them with...

Nah, didn't expect that by any chance...

I don't even know what you're talking about, much less suggest anything intelligent or useful.

Ahh but you did! <last paragraph>

Of course I might search and download all 15 user manuals (if available), probably a few schematics just to know what's cooking inside and then read a few hundred related posts in Harmony Central, My Les Paul, the Marshall Forum, etc. to check what others think.

Fat chance.

FWIW: I definitely didn't expect a hand-guided, pedal by pedal tweak guide either.
My thinking in listing all of them was primarily so that if anyone knew of outstanding issues with any given one, perhaps they could list their experience/remedy...or how they approached that one.

I've also done quite a bit of browsing on the topic, but usually it ends up dealing with one specific situation. However, so far, it's been hard to find many in-depth/informative posts on the subject as a whole. Seems most don't worry about it, and I assume those that do, are big-money pro's that have already paid a tech
to do such. But I've never been approached about balancing a whole chain (as a tech), nor have I gone "full hog" on a floor board until now. So it wasn't something I have had any experience in/with.

Being that too often we don't get enough context or intent here (so we can see how they're approaching any given topic), I made the opposite mistake (as is par for me so it seems) and gave WAY too much info which evidently (obviously to all but me) made reading my intent confusing. Apologies to all for that!:x

So all I can suggest, in good faith, is to apply the "KISS" principle, and set all pedals OFF, then set them one by one on to unity gain, off ; then another on, set to unity gain, off and so on.
Only way to minimize variables and avoid surprises.

OK, "stupid question":
I typically associate "unity" as being: uniform level.
But what's the generally accepted definition (in musical terms) for unity in this sense?

Is it: identical output level as your input level?
(If yes: What would a good target Vac be for pedal level)

If so, then that gives me a nice method of attack. If not, then I would humbly ask for further clarification!

Lastly I assume that the first pedal would/should be tailored to the instrument, and the last one should be tailored to the amp...just curious about those in between! =)

Thanks again all!

[Audiotexan]

Think you'll end up goin' the whole hog Mr Texan .. it's an ear thing .. wot about knockin up a couple of adjustable tube buffers 2 halves in the one tube so
either 4 or with eq 2 ? Experiment is the only way ...

"We later extended this idea to effects systems by including a similar design of tube buffer amp between each effect and the next so that the effect “thinks” it is plugged directly into the amp and responds as if it were the only effect in line, as in the solid state versions. In the all tube effects systems each effect ACTUALLY IS connected to a tube whereas in the solid state version it only THINKS it is."

Effects Pedal Board Systems

Appreciate the link. Reading it now! =)

BTW, it seems like got the gist of what I was *trying* to convey. I appreciate your help as well!

I couldn't even afford Brad Paisley's boots. And what I'm hoping to do, would probably cost a normal person going to a tech at least $500 to do properly (with all the time and research and schem's involved. LOL) Fortunately I have most of the schems, and my time's "free" so.. I just needed a better understanding of a what would entail a good/proper approach/methodology for professional results!

[pdf64]

Why not just toggle each pedal on/off whilst strumming the guitar, and adjust the pedal output to avoid the volume being shifted too much?
Using a sig gen single freq may not work well with modulation / delay fx due to the effective comb filtering of their output.
Bear in mind that with long delays / loops, the level is bound to build up, so a compromise has to be made.

[Audiotexan]

Using a sig gen single freq may not work well with modulation / delay fx due to the effective comb filtering of their output.
Bear in mind that with long delays / loops, the level is bound to build up, so a compromise has to be made.

Another great note! TY sir!

In which case, I'll probably do both (single tone, and vari-sweep) and try to shoot for a happy medium.

[pdf64]

How about a pink noise generator? Pink rather than white as when measured at the guitar output, the level of the lower strings seems greater than the higher strings.

[Mick Bailey]

I've had a few problems with levels in pedalboards. The first thing I do is identify where there's a definite level problem and this is usually where there's no level control on a particular pedal. These need to be 'fixed' so that they offer unity gain - usually a resistor change or minor tweak to a transistor or opamp stage.

Modulation can be problematic because of the frequency-selective reinforcement/cancellation effects. I sometimes need to boost the signal slightly when certain effects are engaged because the perception is they're reducing the volume (though actually the volume may be the same). This can be worsened by having multiple modulation effects switched in. Some switchers have level controls for each buffer so that the pedals can be individually trimmed for volume.