Soft vs hard clipping - I feel such a fool

[pdf64]

I'm not sure that the inverting-vs-noninverting op-amp makes that much of a difference in the manner in which clipping occurs.

As I see it, the point is that with a non-inverting arrangement, the original signal is present alongside the clipped signal at the output of the clipping amp, whereas with an inverting arrangement, it is not.

[pdf64]

I've heard it I guess.

Can you outline the process, ie from hearing a sound system, analysing its quality and concluding that odd or even harmonic distortion were the cause of it being listenable or unlistenable?

Apologies for being a dick, but the OP was about querying internet (or other) received wisdom, and it seemed that the odd/even harmonic thing is another one of those.

[guitician]

It's like the difference between pink noise and white noise. If you listen to those then you can get a sense for what the odd/even thing is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_noise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise

[eschertron]

It's like the difference between pink noise and white noise. If you listen to those then you can get a sense for what the odd/even thing is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_noise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise

So even harmonic distortion is like listening to pink noise, and odd is like listening to white noise? Do I understand you correctly? What do I win if I get that right?

[guitician]

You've won understanding

[pdf64]

It's like the difference between pink noise and white noise. If you listen to those then you can get a sense for what the odd/even thing is.

This is getting bizarre! Are you making it up?

[guitician]

No, I'm not making it up.

I've always though solid state stereo gear sounded like crap compared with tubes. I started listening to the '70's receivers and when I first hooked up an old tube amp I was amazed at how good it sounds. Then I got into '50's speakers, and they have their own thing to add too. But the noises are like that, in that, the "Natural" sound(pink noise) is like what comes from acoustic instruments, and white noise is more of an artificially generated sound, like from a Casio KB.

OK, so "stand to listen too." was a bit harsh, in fact I'm listening to a Luxman SS amp as I type this, but through some really nice 1957 speakers.

[pdf64]

But what is your basis for correlating 'nice sound quality' to 'pink noise' to 'even harmonics', and 'nasty sound quality' to white noise' to 'odd harmonics'?

[guitician]

My personal basis is that I like when I hear the pink noise, and I don't like to hear white, not that I listen to it that much, if at all. I'm sure some others may like the white noise over the pink, but that's them.

[Chuck H]

White noise is like white bread. All artificial. Or like White Out. Toxic. It's artificial and toxic. Pink noise is like, well, I shouldn't say, but it's natural! Trust me. The moniker "pink" shouldn't go unrecognized. So... What would any of us rather have? Artificial and toxic or access to lady parts?

Clearly when it comes to white noise and pink noise there is no contest!

[eschertron]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Clearly when it comes to white noise and pink noise there is no contest!

So what exactly was in that kool-aid that you drank?

[Chuck H]

So what exactly was in that kool-aid that you drank?

Oh, I was just using the comparison to exercise my shtick. I don't actually have an opinion either way.

About noise that is. Not lady parts

[J M Fahey]

In this discussion please forget white vs pink noise which is interesting but unrelated.
This is already complex enough without adding extra "noise" (sorry, I couldn't resist )

Odd and even distortion sound recognizably different.

VERY easy to test, just build a RAT or an MXR Dist+ which use plain output antiparallel diode clipping, and add a switch to disconnect one of them.

Do not simulate and draw conclusions, plain play a guitar and listen, because we are interested in the psychoacoustical result.

[Dave H]

It's common internet “wisdom” that even harmonics sound sweet and odd harmonics sound harsh but when I measured my favourite amplifier (Dominator/18W) it had more 3rd, 5th and 7th harmonics than 2nd, 4th and 6th. A 3rd harmonic is an octave of a musical fifth isn't it? And a fifth is in both major and minor chords so how can that sound harsh?

[Chuck H]

It's common internet “wisdom” that even harmonics sound sweet and odd harmonics sound harsh but when I measured my favourite amplifier (Dominator/18W) it had more 3rd, 5th and 7th harmonics than 2nd, 4th and 6th. A 3rd harmonic is an octave of a musical fifth isn't it? And a fifth is in both major and minor chords so how can that sound harsh?

Three cheers! I don't have all as much fancy book lernin' as many posters here. My design process includes a lot of bench time and wave form interpretation to familiarize myself with what does what. So I'm looking at the scope between tone tests. I don't have a spectrum analyzer but I do know (or at least I've read ) that symmetrical clipping with hard edges creates more odd order harmonics and asymmetrical clipping with soft edges creates more even order harmonics. If you dig clipping, chances are that a somewhat more symmetrical wave form with hard edges sounds better to you. At least this seems to be the case with my customers and others I present my amps to. My opinion has become that odd order harmonics DO NOT sound harsh or bad. It's a lack of even order harmonics that sounds bad. Big difference. If a clipped wave form is just too symmetrical it should be comparatively low on 2nd harmonic. This tends to sound hollow and artificial (to offer my own perception). This sort of very clinical transistor clipping is probably where the perception (or misperception) comes from. A very unsymmetrical wave form (lots of 2nd harmonic) sounds sort of plain and lacks edge and note definition/separation. So what you really want is a harmonic soup. With all the harmonics represented. I think. The exact balance is what defines clipped "tone". Probably one reason speakers choice is such a big issue for amps. More than defining the overall EQ balance, A speakers wildly dynamic response will interact with your harmonic soup and affect the volume of specific harmonic properties. But that's moving into another area again...

Kudos on this point. The "Even order = good / odd order = bad." thing has bugged me ever since I first heard it. Just like "Preamp distortion is buzzy." also has.