Screaming Leads, harmonics etc... Problem

[Rattler66]

I have a fender Custom Shop Nocaster-> catalinbread Dirty little secret-> byoc digital delay ->homebrew DrZ Route66

I can get that massive marshall crunch open and clear (nice rhythm)BUT my lead lines don't have the sustain and the scream (i can hit the harmonic but it doesn't sustain or linger) that i get with a distortion pedal.

If a use my BYOC mighty mouse or BYOC shredder I can get that harmonic searing leads BUT it's more compressed? or saturated?

What can i do to get my Marshall crunch to sustain and scream like my distortion pedals without loosing that openess? I've tried a clean boost and it increases that awesome crunch but doesn't translate to lead playing? Would adding a compressor do this? Is the distortion pedal compressing, which enables those screaming harmonics to jump out? Thanks

[Justin Thomas]

That's not an insubstantial amplifier you're using... where's the volume knob(s) & Tone controls? Sorry, stupid question, but an important one if you're a fan of Non-Master-Volume amps (which I am). Not being a smartass, just asking for more information.

Justin

[Rattler66]

That's not an insubstantial amplifier you're using... where's the volume knob(s) & Tone controls? Sorry, stupid question, but an important one if you're a fan of Non-Master-Volume amps (which I am). Not being a smartass, just asking for more information.

Justin

well last night i revisited my situation and ended up maxing the volume (controling volume with guitar) treble at about 11 and bass on about 1. much much better but still a little short of what im looking for. on my dirty little secret i have treble on 11 bass at 0 and pre amp maxed and master volume at about 9 oclock. if i open up the guitar on 10 it's loud and does screm more, but still looking for more sustain

[Chuck H]

Justin is on the right track. Getting the harmonic (or the fundamental) to sustain requires both sensitivity (gain) and acoustic feedback. Acoustic feedback is a byproduct of volume for our purposes. If you have less volume you need more gain. Conversely, if you have more volume you can get away with less gain. That will help you keep the open-ness. I think your troubles could be solved with a 100W Marshall and no dB restrictions. Short of that it's going to be a compromise. A little more compressed sounding due to higher gain. You can go a long way toward getting closer with careful EQ (hint: keep the high mids up behind the clipping stages as much as possible).Hopefully it's easier to tolerate the compromise once you understand the problem.

[Rattler66]

Thanks Chuck H, obviously i can only go so loud but i can up the gain on the DLS (switch to SL mode), i'll try again later. The DLS is a fairly new pedal to me so i'm still learning how to manipulate its sounds.

[Steve A.]

Thanks Chuck H, obviously i can only go so loud but i can up the gain on the DLS (switch to SL mode), i'll try again later. The DLS is a fairly new pedal to me so i'm still learning how to manipulate its sounds.

I've had a DLS Mk II for many years. With that version there was no tone stack but just a Presence and Fullness (like Resonance) controls which were like subtle tweaks to the basic Marshall tone. What was cool about it was that it sounded good at most settings (no need to carefully dial it in.)

The SL mode on your DLS should work better for you. BTW what kind of pickups do you have on your Nocaster? (I love the Nocaster pickups but I play blues and rock... no screaming leads and hard rock harmonics.)

Steve Ahola

[Rattler66]

I've had a DLS Mk II for many years. With that version there was no tone stack but just a Presence and Fullness (like Resonance) controls which were like subtle tweaks to the basic Marshall tone. What was cool about it was that it sounded good at most settings (no need to carefully dial it in.)

The SL mode on your DLS should work better for you. BTW what kind of pickups do you have on your Nocaster? (I love the Nocaster pickups but I play blues and rock... no screaming leads and hard rock harmonics.)

Steve Ahola

They are the CS nocaster set. It's a 2006 model

[Fluoroscope 5000]

An amp like that is aimed at just enhancing and deepening whatever goes into it. Even the high gain preamp tube will not drive the amp section into saturation, but it might help to push the input harder. The lack of any neg feedback makes the gain envelope more linear, but more resonant as well, which makes the bass boomy and can make the high end harsh. Increasing the amp Treble may do the trick if not too piercing -- being that the amp is set up like having the Presence maxed. If it's the DLS Mk III pedal, I assume the internal switch is set to "Super Lead" with the Presence trim screw adjusted to your liking? Tried cranking the Midrange to 8 or so and reducing the Treble to ~3 with the internal Presence up high? Tried running it @18V? Tried cranking the DLS output into your clean boost and then boosting into the amp?

Amp tone stacks actually boost the bass and highs when set flat. Less so on Marshalls than Fenders, The high end doesn't really flatten out until the Treble is at ~1. 3 is a good place to start, but you might reduce it more with higher gain and Presence settings. The Midrange actually boosts the high end as well, so crank it to drive whatever comes after it. Adjust Bass to taste. It doesn't flatten out until ~1 either. Download the Duncans 'TSC 1.3' for PC to see how common tone stacks work interactively. You know that cable capacitance adds up b4 the first gain stage, so a true bypass pedal without a buffer b4 it lowers the guitar resonance peak when disengaged. Low capacitance cables can be helpful.

One of the ~$50 GFS pedals might be a good easy/budget choice for more gain.
The newer Greenie & Brownie Classic pedals apparently come with the LM308 Op Amp used in the original Rat pedals with a corrected resistor value for a more Tone knob roll off. The slew rate of the LM308 limits the high end to ~5kHz, which is good for high gain sounds. All analog components with 3 really useful voicings and sounds great for ~$50. Heck, what beats a Rat into a Marshall?

You could also use a Variac on the amp for earlier/crunchy/saggy break up. I saw a 5A 120V max one you can use for ~$60. It won't get you that singing sustain, but might be a cool option to have. Once you get a few pedals set up, you could use a passive A/B box for your lead and rhythm paths, eventually with another A/B on either side for different rhythm and lead options via Eric Johnson.

[Rattler66]

Thanks for all that info. It really helps me understand a lot more. I'm gonna need with it more later on. I'll report back. Thanks again

[Rattler66]

An amp like that is aimed at just enhancing and deepening whatever goes into it. Even the high gain preamp tube will not drive the amp section into saturation, but it might help to push the input harder. The lack of any neg feedback makes the gain envelope more linear, but more resonant as well, which makes the bass boomy and can make the high end harsh. Increasing the amp Treble may do the trick if not too piercing -- being that the amp is set up like having the Presence maxed. If it's the DLS Mk III pedal, I assume the internal switch is set to "Super Lead" with the Presence trim screw adjusted to your liking? Tried cranking the Midrange to 8 or so and reducing the Treble to ~3 with the internal Presence up high? Tried running it @18V? Tried cranking the DLS output into your clean boost and then boosting into the amp?

Amp tone stacks actually boost the bass and highs when set flat. Less so on Marshalls than Fenders, The high end doesn't really flatten out until the Treble is at ~1. 3 is a good place to start, but you might reduce it more with higher gain and Presence settings. The Midrange actually boosts the high end as well, so crank it to drive whatever comes after it. Adjust Bass to taste. It doesn't flatten out until ~1 either. Download the Duncans 'TSC 1.3' for PC to see how common tone stacks work interactively. You know that cable capacitance adds up b4 the first gain stage, so a true bypass pedal without a buffer b4 it lowers the guitar resonance peak when disengaged. Low capacitance cables can be helpful.

One of the ~$50 GFS pedals might be a good easy/budget choice for more gain.
The newer Greenie & Brownie Classic pedals apparently come with the LM308 Op Amp used in the original Rat pedals with a corrected resistor value for a more Tone knob roll off. The slew rate of the LM308 limits the high end to ~5kHz, which is good for high gain sounds. All analog components with 3 really useful voicings and sounds great for ~$50. Heck, what beats a Rat into a Marshall?

You could also use a Variac on the amp for earlier/crunchy/saggy break up. I saw a 5A 120V max one you can use for ~$60. It won't get you that singing sustain, but might be a cool option to have. Once you get a few pedals set up, you could use a passive A/B box for your lead and rhythm paths, eventually with another A/B on either side for different rhythm and lead options via Eric Johnson.

Thanks so much. That's a lot of help. You have an awesome grasp of gear. I'll mess with it later and report back

[Rattler66]

Alright here's the deal.
Amp Treble 11 O'clock Bass 7 0'clock
DLS SL mode Treble 7 o'clock Mids full Bass 8 o'clock Gain Full

Sounds like a roaring beast and screams like a banshee.......Perfect

I can run my volumes any level and still sounds awesome, big full chords and leads. I wonder how big a humbucker would sound?

thanks for the tips....

[Steve A.]

Alright here's the deal.
Amp Treble 11 O'clock Bass 7 0'clock
DLS SL mode Treble 7 o'clock Mids full Bass 8 o'clock Gain Full

Sounds like a roaring beast and screams like a banshee.......Perfect

I can run my volumes any level and still sounds awesome, big full chords and leads. I wonder how big a humbucker would sound?

thanks for the tips....

If you can get the sound you want with an analog FX pedal plugged into a tube amp, more power to you! There is no shame in not being able to get there without the pedal. As for digital modellers... pffft!

Steve A.

[tedmich]

There is no shame in not being able to get there without the pedal...

I disagree!



Kidding, we can't all amp out...

[Justin Thomas]

I only use pedals (well, distortion pedals) because 50W is too loud, apparently... whatever.

Justin

[Fluoroscope 5000]

Alright here's the deal.
Amp Treble 11 O'clock Bass 7 0'clock
DLS SL mode Treble 7 o'clock Mids full Bass 8 o'clock Gain Full

Sounds like a roaring beast and screams like a banshee.......Perfect

I can run my volumes any level and still sounds awesome, big full chords and leads. I wonder how big a humbucker would sound?

thanks for the tips....

Excellent! Thanks for the compliments. I had some good mentors. It must be the extra amp gain from cranking the midrange. Reducing the midrange became more common when high gain preamps and the cutting scooped Metal sound became popular. I think it is somewhat changing back in Metal.
Your DSL pedal may also have an internal Presence trim set @12 o'clock by default. The is no indication in the manual that it is a high end neg feedback circuit as in a real amp, so it won't open the gain envelope. The manual indicates that it's a 3kHz centered boost located after the drive stages, so it will increase the edge for a harder attack sound without generating more harmonics. A Treble and/or slight midrange knob reduction would then decrease the generated high end harmonics for a more creamy sound without loss of definition. The default setting might be fine with your amp settings.

Next thing is to experiment with a low capacitance cable for a more open bell-like high end. I generally recommend getting both a 6' (~160pF) & 10' (~260pF) Rapco 'G1' series to try out. That's 25pF/foot + ~10F for the plugs.

I also have some ideas for diode clipping pedals using Shotkky diodes with a pot to adjust the gain envelope, possible Op Amp "hot" bias adjustment with a better chip, and opening the Tone knob Low Pass filter up for a Germanium to tube-like sound. You should be able turn a cheap diode/Op Amp pedal into real gem with some cheap fixes. BYOC applies some of that in the new 'Green Pony' Pedal kit. I might experiment with this in future.

BTW, love to hear demo of your setup at some point. Even a video made with a recent smart phone should be good, as the newer MEMS mics in them have excellent sound quality.