Computer crash problem

[defaced]

I guess my rub with the whole bitching about MS and support thing is that it shouldn't be a suprise, so why complain? MS had been through many many OSes when XP came out, so a pattern had been established. None of them had the length of support XP has had, so we got a pretty good run for our money. And to boot, we are all given a chance to read the EULA when we install the OS, so we're told what we're getting into up front. I think that amount of runtime and support out of an OS is pretty good when you look at the entire picture.

To tell the truth this started out as a cheap computing project, because I've always felt that a person who deliberately stays a couple steps behind the leading edge of technology can do a lot of computing on a very minimal budget.

That'd be me. I think the computer I'm running now is about 3 years old and before that the one I had was 6. What I have now is plenty of power for what I do on a regular basis, and probably enough to do multitrack mixdowns when I get back into recording. I don't need the best of the best, I just need something that works reliably.

[bob p]

I guess my rub with the whole bitching about MS and support thing is that it shouldn't be a suprise, so why complain? MS had been through many many OSes when XP came out, so a pattern had been established.

I'm really trying to keep that promise. Really. But when you say something that's just so wrong, I feel that its important to rebut the BS.

The "pattern" that had been established changed dramatically with XP. DOS never did any of this stuff that we're talking about. Neither did Windows for Workgroups. Windows 95 never had the hardware scanning time bomb in it that XP has. IIRC 95 never kept track of your hardware and then forced you into a compliance check the way that XP does. Did 98? I've changed a LOT of hardware on 98 boxes and I've never been caught by a hardware inventory compliance check. AFAIK this BS all started with XP.

I think its unfair to say that there was a "pattern" in "many" previous OS that forewarned us about the kind of behavior that we're talking about in XP. The extent to which XP tracks your hardware is a new innovation that only became viable in the era of the persistent internet connection.

[bob p]

... And to boot, we are all given a chance to read the EULA when we install the OS, so we're told what we're getting into up front.

No, you're not getting into that up front. You are only given the full terms of the EULA at the last possible moment -- after you've bought the software, after you've installed it (overwriting whatever's on your disks), and the last possible minute prior to actually using the software. In the industry, this is known as a "Point of Use" execution of a modified EULA.

This brings up an interesting point about what constitutes full disclosure, and WHEN disclosure should take place. IMO reputable vendors provide disclosure prior to the sale, not after the sale, not after installation, and not immediately prior to actually beginning to use the software. I have to admit, I am amazed that end users accept the current way of doing things as being acceptable. I guess that most home users don't have the experience / sophistication to know that that's not the way that LAs have always been managed in this industry.

For decades, software license agreements have been negotiated up-front, prior to the sale. The new EULA paradigm that provides disclosure after the sale, after installation, and at the moment of first use is a recent innovation that's been foisted upon people who aren't sophisticated and experienced enough to recognize it for what it is -- a last minute waiver of your rights. Most people just agree to the EULA by performing a keystroke because they're impatient and eager to use the new software, or because its believed that performing a return would be so difficult that its perceived to be "too late" to back out.


I'm all for full disclosure. It's important to know everything about what you're buying into up front, before the money changes hands. An ethical vendor won't have a problem with that. I have to admit, I've always preferred the EULA that's delivered prior to the sale. I've never liked it when you only get to see the EULA after you open the box and you get to read what's printed on a sealed envelope containing the discs. That paradigm was established for the express purpose of changing the terms of the deal after it the sale had taken place and after the deal had been consummated. The "Envelope EULA" has always been regarded in the IT industry as a device that's designed to exploit users who would rather concede their rights than abandon the sunk costs involved in preparing to deploy a product. The "Point of Use EULA" pushes this model to its logical extreme.

I certainly don't think you're getting adequate disclosure after you buy a product, install it, destructively over-writing what's on your drives, and get presented with a last-minute modification of the EULA when its displayed on-screen. I scratch my head wondering who could possibly consider this kind of last minute deal changing to be acceptable.

The software customer can only make an informed choice about purchasing a product if the software vendor is honest about telling him what he's buying, BEFORE the transaction takes place. If there's any lack of disclosure on the part of the vendor, than the customer has been hoodwinked. Implanting any sort of trojan horse and/or time limiting feature that is not disclosed up is definitely unethical behavior. IMO its also unethical behavior to modify the terms of the EULA after the customer has bought the software. Yes, you have to agree to the EULA when you perform an initial install, but if an update comes along and offers you an additional EULA that dramatically differs from the terms of the original EULA, then you've been screwed. Its not fair to change the rules of the game after play has started. Some companies are famous for that.

... And to boot, we are all given a chance to read the EULA when we install the OS, so we're told what we're getting into up front.

I read the modified "point of use" EULA when I installed XP. I don't remember it ever saying anything about the new OS keeping track of the individual hardware components in my PC, periodically polling the hardware for changes, and then impairing the system's functionality or forcing me to call Microsoft for a validation code if the OS decided that I had upgraded my PC to the point that the hardware tracking algorithm in the OS decided to black-flag my installation. If that's in the EULA than I'd really like to see it in print. My recollection is that in agreeing to the terms of the EULA, I never expressly waived the right to update/upgrade my computer. All of this stuff that MS is doing, its been doing behind my back without full disclosure. I never entered into a licensing agreement that enumerated these activities.

[defaced]

Of those OSes that don't monitor hardware, which ones do you still use on a regular basis?

I think its unfair to say that there was a "pattern" in "many" previous OS that forewarned us about the kind of behavior that we're talking about in XP. The extent to which XP tracks your hardware is a new innovation that only became viable in the era of the persistent internet connection.

That's not the point I was going after. The point I was after was this woe is me stuff about how companies and people and whatever buy into a OS and then have to upgrade when the product becomes obsolete.

You are correct, XP was the first to monitor hardware. I too have done serious hardware changes to my XP box, and I don't recall ever getting prompted for reactivation. For instance, for a very long time the XP disc/code I used was purchased for a laptop that had been stolen. I didn't have any problems activating that copy of XP, which makes me believe there is a time frame where the hardware lock falls off, but don't hold me to that.

No, you're not getting into that up front. You are only given the full terms of the EULA at the last possible moment -- after you've bought the software, after you've installed it (overwriting whatever's on your disks), and the last possible minute prior to actually using the software. In the industry, this is known as a "Point of Use" execution of a modified EULA.

Which EULA of Microsoft's would you like to read before you spend your money?
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...s/default.aspx

[Steve A.]

I'm really trying to keep that promise. Really. But when you say something that's just so wrong, I feel that its important to rebut the BS.

The "pattern" that had been established changed dramatically with XP. DOS never did any of this stuff that we're talking about. Neither did Windows for Workgroups. Windows 95 never had the hardware scanning time bomb in it that XP has. IIRC 95 never kept track of your hardware and then forced you into a compliance check the way that XP does. Did 98? I've changed a LOT of hardware on 98 boxes and I've never been caught by a hardware inventory compliance check. AFAIK this BS all started with XP.

I think its unfair to say that there was a "pattern" in "many" previous OS that forewarned us about the kind of behavior that we're talking about in XP. The extent to which XP tracks your hardware is a new innovation that only became viable in the era of the persistent internet connection.

Bob P.

I was going to make the same point that you and Steve have been making: MS had never really abandoned their old OS's which still ran if you have the hardware that it runs on. MS DOS 3.30 still works great, and most if not all versions of Windows have been able to run old DOS programs, in compatibility mode in recent years. Supposedly one of the reasons that Windows code is so bloated is that it wanted to provide backward compatibility with the older OS's (at this point there is so much bloat that I doubt that is a factor any more).

You keep mentioning Win98 as an alternative to XP. Win98 had some serious memory issues; RAM used by programs would not be returned to the global pool when you exited the program. In RAM intensive work (audio and graphics editors) I would reboot every 2 hours just to reclaim memory. I figured it was better to reboot on my own schedule rather than have Win98 reboot my computer for me (Thanks, Bill!) When I moved up to Windows 2000 it was like I had died and gone to hog heaven- the perfect OS in my book. I resisted XP for several years, figuring it was just Win2000 with a pretty face (just as Win2k was WinNT with a pretty face). And the whole activation thing really turned me off. At the beginning of XP's lifecycle I believe that they were more diligent in vetting reactivations of prior installs since they stood to lose more. Retail sales of XP stopped in June 2008 (except for Ultra Low Cost PC's due to expire this October) and all support for SP3 will be terminated in April 2014.

Question: If you purchased a retail edition of XP and the computer you installed it on died, can you have that license transferred to a new computer? Or do you need to pretend that there were a lot of changes in the old computer (which can technically be true for people who assemble their own PC's- you might install a new mobo and CPU in the same old computer case you were using).

Back in the 80's Borland (of Turbo C/++ fame) had the best policy on multiple installs from a single licensed copy: you treat the software as though it were a book. You might be reading the book yourself, or you might loan it to a friend- but you can't do both at the same time. So you could have a Borland program installed on your computer at work and your computer at home, and as long as both were not being used at the same time it was perfectly legal. Phillippe Kahn left Borland and invented the camera phone in 1997- right after Al Gore had invented the internet.

BTW Borland used no copyprotection, at least on the programs I had. Back then I believe it was dBase that actually burned a hole in the distribution disk; if that hole was not found in a predetermined location then the program would not load.

Speaking of copyprotection, there was this game in the 80's which was a space adventure which was almost a predecessor of Warcraft (one of the activities was mining ore).

When you ran the program it asked you 3 random questions which you could answer only if you had the book. The guy who gave me the game said not to worry- just type anything in there. Wow- he was right; the program loaded just fine. So you would go on your first assignment, mining ore at some asteroid or planet. When you had accumulated enough ore you could then leave that planet and proceed to your next assignment.

However, when you were back in outer space you were soon intercepted by a small ship who radioed you "Software Police here, you are flying an unauthorized vehicle" and the program would return to the opening screen. What was cool about that was that it gave you a taste of the game and if you liked it you could buy it (or search the dial-up BBS's for a list of the answers).

Getting back to WinXP when it came out in 2001, there was a lot of controversy about the whole activation concept. But I don't recall people getting upset because of a limited support life cycle; was that publicized when WinXP came out? We all understood that programs and OS's will eventually become obsolete as the hardware to run them is no longer available; that is a given. But the idea of intentionally making the OS obsolete after a certain length of time... that was never a part of the bargain before XP.

A good example would be the hardware, software and OS of your digital audio workstation. As long as all 3 were stable working together, there was really no need to upgrade any of them. In fact in upgrading the hardware, software or OS your DAW might develop new problems. So it was often best to look at your DAW as an embedded system, like the computer in your car which supports specific tasks and that is it.

Unfortunately hardware does die and you may need to get a new computer for your DAW. If your digital audio converter was from M-Audio you'd go to their site and you could usually find a new driver that will work with new OS you are using- actually most likely the old driver but patched to work with the new OS.

M-Audio will not do that with every model it ever put out; for the older hardware it would basically the models that were top notch and still widely in use. There are products that they sold for a year or two but never did catch one; after 5 years there may not be a new driver to support a new OS (or Service Pack!)

The new DAW hardware typically connects to the PC via USB 2.0 or FireWire, and there is a good chance that they will work with a new OS as is without a patch. But the hardware which connects to the computer bus with a board in an expansion slot will usually require the patch since it is tied in to the computer and OS on a very deep level. In any case, AFAIK M-Audio never had a strict schedule for discontinuing support and thus making the product obsolete.

Omigawd- I forgot that I was cooking a roast! The house is filled with smoke, the alarm is going off and here am I fiddling around with this computer crap as Rome burns.

Gotta go!

Steve Ahola

[Prairie Dawg]

This morphed into an interesting discussion of OS philosophy and I'm glad I didn't have to wade through the rantings of linux nazis and mac cork sniffers.

I have to say that I understand both sides of the problem, and it is likely of interest mostly to technology libertarians (a group which I count myself among), and microsoft when they're seeing that 90 per cent of the computers in Asia are using ripoffs of their operating systems without being paid for it. If I was in the business of developing products like that and seeing them get ripped off with governmental disrespect for IP as we see in China I'd look at ways to make it difficult for thieves, even if it made life a little more challenging for everyone else.

Having said all that everything's working fine, I got rid of a lot of applications that I wasn't really using, and I'll see what happens on day 30.

I may go to ISU on Wednesday and see what they've got for sale-it is a good place to buy hardware.

As a picture of what I do with this particular box and monitor , I was hard wiring the power tube and main board on an Ampeg VL502 late in the week. I pulled up the Lee Jackson video where he does this task and had it available as I worked. I also use it for pulling up schematics and zooming in on a particular area.

[Steve Conner]

Just to clarify

As far as I know, you can reactivate the Retail version of XP as many times as you like on different hardware. You just can't activate it on several machines at once.

The OEM version of XP is supposed to be preinstalled by a computer manufacturer, and be tied to that computer for its life, so that's why they have the hardware tracking thing in it. I think in this case it's the OEM who enters into the license agreement with MS, not the end user of the box.

But in the UK at least, you can buy OEM XP licenses considerably cheaper than the retail version. This is what I did for the last two PCs I built. They're only supposed to be sold with hardware, so some retailers give you a free mouse with it.

[Steve A.]

I have to say that I understand both sides of the problem, and it is likely of interest mostly to technology libertarians (a group which I count myself among), and microsoft when they're seeing that 90 per cent of the computers in Asia are using ripoffs of their operating systems without being paid for it.

That's easy- Microsoft could just stop making the Asian language versions. And add ethnic slurs to the English release intended to offend Asians. So if they are going to pirate the product at least MS could insult them...

Another point I forgot to bring up- over the years I have bought OS's from Microsoft at least a dozen times, maybe 6 of them retail and 6 of them OEM (the OEM license is included in the store-bought computer).

Many vendors offer upgrade rebates for people who purchased earlier versions. So why the heck doesn't Microsoft do the same??? Especially when they pretty much have us over a barrel...

BTW have you ever seen the retail version of an MS OS offered at a discount? When Computer City went out of business they were selling everything in the store for up to 50% off. I went in there early looking for some MS apps and OS's and they were no where to be found. "Oh, people must have bought all of the copies." I don't think so. I think that they were pulled from the shelves and shipped to a central warehouse before the sale even began. (I had looked at the store the day before and they still had plenty of copies of MS apps and ops, so to speak.) Of course my conspiracy theory could be wrong; local businesses could have bought them up because they are like gold.

Another question: where do old software programs go? In normal retail the product that doesn't move keeps getting marked down until the inventory (or most of it) is gone. I just don't see that happening in computer software. I suspect that the vendors offer credit for obsolete product towards newer versions and programs, just to keep the value of their software up high.

Oops! I just realized that there are on-line dealers who specialize in older versions- I had bought an older version of Quicken when the version I was running no longer supported getting information from my bank. (Intuit is another company that has you over a barrel.) But you usually don't find the older versions in the normal retail outlets. I think that they are returned to the vendor and then often sold to companies that specialize in overstock, etc.

As a picture of what I do with this particular box and monitor , I was hard wiring the power tube and main board on an Ampeg VL502 late in the week. I pulled up the Lee Jackson video where he does this task and had it available as I worked. I also use it for pulling up schematics and zooming in on a particular area.

Glad to hear that you can watch videos- that can be very taxing of system resources as well as your video hardware and driver.

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

[bob p]

Bob P.

I was going to make the same point that you and Steve have been making: MS had never really abandoned their old OS's which still ran if you have the hardware that it runs on.

Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in!

You keep mentioning Win98 as an alternative to XP. Win98 had some serious memory issues; RAM used by programs would not be returned to the global pool when you exited the program. In RAM intensive work (audio and graphics editors) I would reboot every 2 hours just to reclaim memory. I figured it was better to reboot on my own schedule rather than have Win98 reboot my computer for me (Thanks, Bill!)

I laughed when I read that comment about prophylactically rebooting when you wanted to -- rather than when when Windows decided to do it for you. I've felt your pain. I've done it myself!

I wasn't really recommending W98. I was just saying that W98 didn't have all of that activation/tracking BS in it. That all came with XP. That said, I did keep rebooting 98, and putting off the upgrade to XP for a long time because of all of the security problems with XP. My basic philosophy was that if the OS wasn't running any daemons, it would be pretty hard for the guys who wrote daemon exploits to own your box. Its amazing how small of a target you could make yourself by sticking to an obsolete OS like 98.

Back in the 80's Borland ...

I remember the borland "like a book" software license. Great idea. I still have my copy of Turbo C on my bookshelf (for nostalgic purposes).

I believe it was dBase that actually burned a hole in the distribution disk; if that hole was not found in a predetermined location then the program would not load.

I seem to remember that being Lotus 123. I actually have both dBase and 123 sitting on my shelves, so I could go look if you really want to know.

Getting back to WinXP when it came out in 2001, there was a lot of controversy about the whole activation concept. But I don't recall people getting upset because of a limited support life cycle; was that publicized when WinXP came out? We all understood that programs and OS's will eventually become obsolete as the hardware to run them is no longer available; that is a given. But the idea of intentionally making the OS obsolete after a certain length of time... that was never a part of the bargain before XP.

I don't have a problem with a company saying something like, "We're only going to support this software for 10 years." That's fine, I can't force them to support the product if they don't want to. There are lots of products and services that have a finite service lifespan. but I think its something totally different for a company to say, "After 7 years and 1 day of service, we're going to execute some hidden code in our software that will cause your system to self-destruct."

With hardware virtualization, software can last forever. Did you know that if you want to run an original copy of dBase on a 128K IBM PC, you can now do that in a virtualized environment? There are versions of linux out there, and programs like VMWare that will allow you to create a virtual hardware environment on your current computer, and as far as the software knows, it is actually running on an old 8088 processor with a monochrome graphics card. so the software can live forever, independent of the hardware actually staying in existence.

I hope you didn't burn the roast.

[bob p]

As far as I know, you can reactivate the Retail version of XP as many times as you like on different hardware. You just can't activate it on several machines at once.

BTDT. Long ago, I had two computers in the house, an old one and a new one. We kept one PC upstairs in an unused bedroom, and I had another PC downstairs in the basement. Wireless didn't exist back then, so if you wanted a home LAN you had to pull cables through the walls. So I built a little home network with a PC upstairs and a PC downstairs.

I had one copy of MS Office back then. I think it was Office 95. It came with the new computer I had bought. Because I got tired of running upstairs and downstairs every time that I wanted to use Word or Excel, I thought I'd install Office on the other PC. The idea was to use my legitimate copy of Office under Borland's "like a book" licensing paradigm that Steve mentioned earlier. My plan was to use the software on my two PCs, but only on one PC at a time, upstairs or downstairs. Office didn't like that.

As I tried to install Office on the other computer, I think the MS installer must have scanned the LAN for the software on the other box. As soon as I typed in the activation code number, both PC's abruptly shut their power off!

It certainly seemed like MS had recognized what was going on, and forced an ulgy shutdown on both boxes. Luckily, I didn't lose any data. When I tried again, I found that you could avoid the shutdown problem by just unplugging the LAN cable during the install.

[Steve A.]

I had one copy of MS Office back then... My plan was to use the software on my two PCs, but only on one PC at a time, upstairs or downstairs. Office didn't like that. As I tried to install Office on the other computer, I think the MS installer must have scanned the LAN for the software on the other box. As soon as I typed in the activation code number, both PC's abruptly shut their power off!

It certainly seemed like MS had recognized what was going on, and forced an ugly shutdown on both boxes. Luckily, I didn't lose any data. When I tried again, I found that you could avoid the shutdown problem by just unplugging the LAN cable during the install.

Bob P.

That story is frightening! The idea that MS could power down both computers when and where it wanted to. Your computers were connected to the internet when that happened, or was it all in code on the install disc?

Even the idea of MS scanning your computer and network leaves a bad taste in my mouth (well, I just woke up so maybe that explains the bad taste. ) And everybody is all pissed off at Facebook and Google over privacy issues- MS is like the Gestapo of the computer world!

Having its applications use hidden hooks in the OS not available to the other developers... And how do you explain Office 2007 which violated every rule in the book that MS wrote on the user interface??? And how Bill Gates became the wealthiest person in the world* from the sweat on OUR brows... that is how he came up with the term "browser"- it's a combination of the sweat on our "brows" and the word "bowser", since we are like an obedient lap dog religiously following each and every command from the Master. But I digest...

Steve Ahola

* Until edged out by Carlos Slim Helu in the Forbes list as of February 12, 2010 ($53.5B vs $53.0B). Warren Buffett is number 3 at $47.B which I don't understand because "Margaritaville" was not that big of a hit- I guess he must have made his money from his franchises and concert concessions.

[bob p]

That story is frightening! The idea that MS could power down both computers when and where it wanted to. Your computers were connected to the internet when that happened, or was it all in code on the install disc?

I didn't have an internet connection at the time. The world was dial-up back then. My setup was just the home LAN that had two computers on it. It had to be the install CD.

Even the idea of MS scanning your computer and network leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Me too.

Warren Buffett is number 3 at $47.B which I don't understand because "Margaritaville" was not that big of a hit- I guess he must have made his money from his franchises and concert concessions.

Who would have thought there would be so much money to be made in singing about having drinks on the beach!?!

[Steve Conner]

The idea that MS could power down both computers when and where it wanted to.

Do you feel the same fear every time you choose Shut Down from the Start menu?

that is how he came up with the term "browser"- it's a combination of the sweat on our "brows" and the word "bowser", since we are like an obedient lap dog

Don't forget Bill Gates is now retired, so you can't blame him for all the crap Microsoft dumps on us any more.

I hate Office 2007 too, and so do my colleagues at work. OpenOffice stuck with the old-style interface, and it seems to be a pretty good clone. Or, there's a plugin you can install to make Office 2007 go back to the old-style menus.

Don't forget that in Office 2007 they changed the document format. The new .docx, .xlsx etc. files are XML-based, and not compatible with the old ones. Nor are they compatible with OpenOffice's own format, which was the first XML format and ought to be the industry standard. People have tried to write converters, but MS' format is so complex and badly documented that it's almost impossible. The industry pundits seem to think that this was a deliberate ploy by MS to torpedo OpenOffice.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who was setting up a server for a 3D rapid prototyping company. It runs Windows Server 2009 with Hyper-V, and has a SAN with 60TB of storage! I wonder how they back that up.

[Steve A.]

Do you feel the same fear every time you choose Shut Down from the Start menu?

It is just my most recent computer that follows the commands of MS like a drug-crazed zombie. (Hmm.. maybe zombies don't use drugs- just human brains. I'll have to look that up.) My older computers would give me the screen telling me it was okay to turn my computer off now.

Steve Ahola

P.S. Yeah- I actually paid $20 for that plug-in that gives Office 97 apps the Windows-authorized menus. Yes, someone at MS has obviously been sniffing Mac- that is my only explanation for "the ribbon". Geez- if you don't like pull down menus then get a Mac!

MS should have had that functionality (i.e. old school menus) built-in rather than leave it up to a third party.

[Zolesz]

Save all your data, do an operating system reinstall and after you complete it defragment the HDD (all partitions) and clean up the registry from the crashed entries (Registry Booster). This may solve your problem. Check if the RAM and the HDD is connected right.