Windows XP. End, or what?

[Enzo]

Sea Chief, I feel your pain. I just hate computers, and the last thing i want to do is fuck with them all the time. I go to best Buy every few years, buy a new computer, plug it in, and it works. I don;t want to do another thing to it other than turn it off and on and use my programs. it is like an amplifier. I take one home from the store, plug in my guitar, and play. Some guys want to modify it, use different tubes, change the tone stack, add switching etc. Some guys are happy to piddle with the computer all the time, a new OS here, 10 new browsers there, reconfiguring their com/sig/bat/poop/wng/doodle. Not me.I get advice like "Oh just reconfigure your registry to cross circuit the ion induction valves..." That is like telling my mom she needs a hotter cam in her car motor. Now bless them all, they are having fun and getting where they want to go. More power to them. But it is not for everyone.


But XP? Think of it as the warranty period just ended. If you have a guitar amp, nothing changes when your warranty runs out, the amp works no different. But you no longer can get it fixed for free.

[Steve A.]

BTW the last time I checked both Wells Fargo and Kaiser Permanente were using Windows XP 64-bit Enterprise Edition on their desktop computers. So I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of support...

Steve

P.S. Whenever they decide to upgrade it will probably be to some version of Unix/Linux.

[eschertron]

Same as me then being the cheapskate (but if no rreason not to, whyany doifferent). And as I said I have no issues at all with using it (old dell laptop + XP) with the internet. But the Q is to do with when XP 'ends' ie on April 8th it will end, or become unupdatable and so not.. erm.. I still dont exactly know what tbh. Will it work or not? Will it start flaming?

Q: can I still use XP after April 8th? as said I dont do fash-bang-wallop stuff like games or movies or download loads of stuff at all.

+1 to Enzo and Steve A. for chiming in. I agree that April 8th will be about as exciting as Dec 21, 2012 was...
I do have a 3rd-party antivirus and am re-assured each month when it pops up and tells me how many and what kind of attacks it thwarted. Am I 100% safe with the system I have? Will I be less safe after April 8th? I dunno, but am not worried about it.

Microsoft has already dropped its support of Java in web browsers because Java is too hack-prone. Makes Microsoft nervous. And yet Java "is on 3 billion devices"! We already know to keep our personal info OFF our computers. That's the only firewall that's really effective.

[Sea Chief]

Sea Chief, I feel your pain. I just hate computers..

But XP? Think of it as the warranty period just ended. If you have a guitar amp, nothing changes when your warranty runs out, the amp works no different. But you no longer can get it fixed for free.

Actually Ive had so few probs, and so few times my head's needed going into hyperdrive understanding kpooter guff like this mellee, I just love mine funnily enough! It amazes me such a complicated thingy I treat pretty badly (whipping out the plug 'off' when it gets me mad & leave on s'times for 2 days before a restart) and cost me £70 5 yrs ago just runs good as gold. Im in a bit of a tizz as I want it to just keep doing what its doing nothing more than that: its far from capable compared to modern ones but it shows no signs whatsoever of glitches or poor running.

"But XP? Think of it as the warranty period just ended. If you have a guitar amp, nothing changes when your warranty runs out, the amp works no different. But you no longer can get it fixed for free."

Now that chimes with what Ive just read on here When Windows XP support ends, here's how to keep your PC secure | Expert Reviews which totally contradicts both what other experts say 'its dead/ move on' and other opinions here saying its a dead-end no-no.. so 2 camps it seems, which helps/ but doesnt help at the same time!

marvellous info though.. it must be said. Thanks chaps for the help. At least Ive got 6 weeks to get a good plan together. SC

[Mick Bailey]

When an operating system falls out of support not only does the manufacturer no longer supply patches and updates for users, but it ceases support given to third-party manufacturers who supply products that hook into the system. This means that the commercial model based around a particular version becomes untenable and the industry moves on.

All software is inherently vulnerable to hacking. When a new operating system is launched it will have new security features, but also becomes a challenge for hackers to discover new vulnerabilities. As time moves on these are fixed and the product becomes more stable and more resilient. As operating systems fall into disuse, no more new threats are discovered. When did you last hear of someone hacking DRDOS or CPM, or Windows 3.11?

The greater threat is machine access, spyware, malware and all other maladies that affect PCs. Let's say you have a PC sitting on a desk not connected to anything else but a printer. You never load any new software, you never insert a memory stick, CD, DVD or anything else. That machine will remain in that state and you can continue to use it for as long as it will hold together. No amount of hacking, viruses or anything else will affect it. So what goes on in the rest of the world doesn't matter.

Then you connect it to the internet. Now you can download files and use E-mail. Someone gives you memory stick, or you load some software off a CD. All of a sudden that machine becomes vulnerable, because there's a possibility of someone (or something) else accessing it. So now you need to protect it. That's where a firewall, anti-virus and anti-spyware becomes important.

Whether an operating system is patched or not doesn't intrinsically create a vulnerability, it's the direct or indirect access to your environment that matters. The term is perimeter security.

Perimeter security prevents anyone from accessing your machine. But hackers figured out if they can't get through the perimeter they'll find another way to get to your machine, mainly because of your own actions. You open an e-mail attachment with an embedded trojan, or you download some software from an untrusted source, or your firewall is out of date, or you don't change a password, or a password isn't strong enough.

The main problem comes when you can no longer maintain an effective firewall, or your AV/AS no longer works, or falls out of support and doesn't get updated.

[Steve A.]

When an operating system falls out of support not only does the manufacturer no longer supply patches and updates for users, but it ceases support given to third-party manufacturers who supply products that hook into the system. This means that the commercial model based around a particular version becomes untenable and the industry moves on.

Good point! For digital audio software the new versions might no longer work with an older operating system. And the new OS and upgraded programs might not support the older hardware. Not a bad idea to leave well enough alone if everything is working and forgo any updates or upgrades. (M-Audio does a great job supporting their older devices as well as older operating systems. I think that they figure out the drivers themselves rather than wait for Microsoft to offer support.)

I did have a question for you. If an old computer is connected to a newer computer through a Windows network to facilitate file transfers but never actually accesses the internet itself is there a danger of it picking up malware through the newer computer (which is well-protected with AV software.) Or would it be safest to disconnect the internet whenever transferring files between the two computers.

Thanks!

Steve

[Jazz P Bass]

I purchased a used Dell Optiplex 755 computer on EBay.
$50.00 plus shipping.

It has Vista Business on it.
It came from a truck leasing company, as they had purchased all new computers.

Dual core 2.3 Ghz microprocessor.
4 Gig of ram.
A 256 Mgb video card,
And a DVD/CDRW drive.

Plug & play.

Hard to beat that price.

[Steve A.]

I purchased a used Dell Optiplex 755 computer on EBay.
$50.00 plus shipping. It has Vista Business on it.
It came from a truck leasing company, as they had purchased all new computers. Hard to beat that price.

Sounds like you lucked out! There are great deals on Dell computers coming off lease from large companies, but their prices usually start around $100. I picked up a 745 about 2 years ago from an Amazon seller/refurbisher to run a 2002 Roland Si-24 automated mixer once I get my studio set up again (I converted that room into a store room and need to convert it back!)

Amazon.com : Dell 745 Optiplex Tower Computer, Featuring Intel's Powerful & Efficient 3.4GHz Pentium D Dual Core CPU Processor, 3GB DDR2 High Performance Memory, Extremely Fast 160GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive, SATA DVD/CDRW, Wireless Capable (Adap

Steve

P.S. One thing cool about the Dell Optiplex line is that they come in 4 different case styles but all of the ones from a particular series use the same motherboard and components (unless upgraded.) You can create a disk image once you have installed everything and then use that image to clone the other computers. The smallest case will mount on a monitor stand(!) while the largest one is called the mini-tower but it is huge, built like a tank and will hold many drives and expansion boards. And then there is the "desktop" which is a more compact size but still has room for expansion (that is the most common style.)The 4th style is called the Small Form Factor...

Dell OptiPlex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.P.S. Assuming that I read the spec sheet for the 755 correctly (not a given) it looks like you can replace the CPU with a Core 2 Quad Q6700 processor being auctioned at eBay currently priced at $21.50 and ending at 11:50PM on 02/20. That would give you one hell of a boost in speed (I'd guess that you have the Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 processor as that is the only one for the 755 that runs at 2.33GHz.)

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 2 66 GHz Quad Core Desktop Computer CPU 0675900891371 | eBay

Here is the tech sheet I was referring to (I'd check with Dell to confirm that the Q6700 would work in your 755 and if there are any settings you need to make on the mobo and whether the memory you have is compatible.)

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global..._techspecs.pdf

[dai h.]

FWIW, there are articles on wikipedia for the various windoze operating systems (like this one for XP) :

Windows XP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mick Bailey]

I did have a question for you. If an old computer is connected to a newer computer through a Windows network to facilitate file transfers but never actually accesses the internet itself is there a danger of it picking up malware through the newer computer (which is well-protected with AV software.) Or would it be safest to disconnect the internet whenever transferring files between the two computers?

The newer computer is providing the security and your older computer is seeing it as a trusted source. In effect your old computer sits within the perimeter. There are two main security threats; 1. The latent danger of malicious files already present on your newer computer being transferred to the old one (whether connected to the internet or not) and 2. When your newer computer is connected to the internet it exposes any attached computers (and itself) or storage media to the threat of live attacks. Many of these are probes attempting to test your firewall or discover internal IP addresses etc., to gain access or control over your computer.

So you can see that there's a theoretical risk in either situation, but that risk is mitigated by your newer computer's defences.

Thankfully AV/AS and firewall security is cumulative in that older threats are continually rolled forward into newer products. That is why the signature files are so large. In addition, most AV products have some form of heuristic scanning to detect files that exhibit the characteristics of a virus. Also, some web browsers flag or block sites known to be malicious.

So long as you maintain an updated firewall and AV suite you're OK.

With an older operating system it's always worthwhile updating all of the resident applications to the last versions capable of running in that environment, including service packs. This improves the overall security model.

[km6xz]

XP is less of a target than it was a few years ago when every hacker focused on it. Now, to up the odds of getting replication by an infected computer communicating with other computers which have the same security holes, increases so it probagates around the internet world. A virus dies if the connections are not found which feature the same holes. Hackers focused on OS's that were most common so their virus would have a better chance to propagate.
The sad part of security is that viruses, which are fought with various anti-virus software, are just the tip of the iceberg in threats and AV is pretty much limited to viruses. So you need a number of specialized anti-xxx programs.
If you have been updating XP all along, it is pretty solid in bugs having been attended to, and your anti-virus has probably kept the viruses away but if you have been on the 'net and have interacted with web sites, get email, share files, you ARE infected with one of the many non-virus threats.
One of the main reasons to upgrade machines is the increasing demands of applications. You could get a lot of work done in 1985 with a XT, WordStar and Lotus with 256kb of ram. Now, to do the same spread sheet or document you can hardly find an application that will run on less than 1gig of ram. So with the XP and limited hardware that was fine in 2000, you are getting boxed in so fewer and fewer applications will run on your computer.
Newer but not cutting edge computers are a bargain. A gamer will toss out a machine with less than 1 gig of video ram alone. You phone is using more ram than that for its OS.
One of the many advantages of Linux is that is will be updated easily for years, all free and requires almost no tweaking to get things working. Just stick a ramdrive or CD in the right hole and turn it on, answer a few questions like what time zone you are in and what languages you want the user interface to display and go get a beer or do the laundry and come back to a fully functioning computer that will be faster, much more secure, self correcting with daily updates, free software for 90% of what you ever wanted to do and no hassles with drivers. If you really want to be able to boot into Windows XP or Win 7, tell it to install Linux beside, instead of over the top of the existing Windows OS.
It really is easier now for basic uses...internet, email, word process, spreadsheets, graphic arts, chat, Skype, photo editing etc. And the best part, it you really do not like how it looks, you are free to change it in a vast array of user interface options. BigTee displayed the Mate desktop but my office, when I decided to get rid of the upgrade hassle of licensing 28 desktop machines and a server, I switched them all to Ubuntu and never had to deal with upgrades, driver conflicts or upgrading applications. LibreOffice is a wonderful office productivity suite which will read all the MS Office files. So you might want to try it. You can ask for a disk or you can download the OS and burn it to a CD or a USB RAM drive and try it without installing it. If you like it, press one button and it will install itself. If you do not like it, pull the CD out, or the USB drive and reboot into XP.
Personally, I don't care which OS, Win 7 is fine for me since I have a whole lot invested in some applications which only run on Windows so I set my 1 tb drive laptop to be Tri-boot, when turning it on, a menus comes up asking me to select one of the 3 OS's to boot into. Photo editing, and software design frameworks in Win, internet, word processing, general office work, communications, on Linux in two flavors. One of the cool features is with VMware, running more than one OS at a time to share data between them, but that is another
story...

[Mick Bailey]

Most decent AV suites include AS and malware detection into a single structured product. The security industry view though is that an ideal model will comprise a multi-vendor environment to diversify coding techniques and prevent a vendor-specific attack from breaching every aspect of the applied security.

By far the greatest threat to a home-users computer's security is the user's own actions, and that's why trojans, program stubs, or any other malicious code gets attached to e-mails or embedded in downloaded material. Why try to get through a fence when you can get invited in through the front door?

Over the years there's been a shift to harvest information for financial or other gain, rather than to destroy or disable a machine. Bank and personal details, usernames, passwords and any other information are more valuable than ever. Very often though it's just a matter of duping the innocent computer user and not even dropping any code on them. I saw a very neat piece of work a while back - an e-mail from Paypal. I checked the source address, it was genuine. I traced the certificate and it was genuine. The only clue to it being wrong was it was sent to a mail address that was not linked at all to Paypal. So I clicked on the link (I wouldn't recommend that anyone does this - the machine was in a controlled environment) and the page was genuine Paypal. I called over my network security colleague and we took a good look at what was going on. The Paypal login area only redirected to a Russian site. What we were looking at was a cross-scripting attack, a really neat piece of work.

Until recently, I've been part of a UK Government programme to isolate it's key services from the web, which is seen as an ultimately indefensible environment. It's based on a UK-wide private network with a strict code of connection 'CoCo'. The UK central intelligence agency GCHQ is behind it and stringent audit controls are in place to remove communication risk from local to National Government agencies for protectively marked, sensitive information up to 'Restricted' level. That tells you something about the internet - we're swimming with sharks.

[Steve A.]

So when support for XP expires on April 8th will they still be hunting for pirated copies with their Window Genuine Advantage program? What about having to phone in to reauthorize a WinXP install if there are significant changes to your computer as was explained when they rolled out the WGA program?

As for the second question I called Microsoft a year or two ago saying that I had retail copy of WinXP that I wanted to move from a dead computer to a different one and wanted to know what was involved in getting it reauthorized. The woman on the phone told me that it should work fine when I go to install it on a different computer, but to call back if I have any problems.

I get the impression that their main concern for XP over the past few years is blocking authorization for installs using those pirated serial and activation numbers that have been widely distributed on the internet. When 20,000 people register and activate their copy of WinXP with the exact same numbers I think that they might start to get suspicious. So if only 2 or 3 or maybe even a full handful of computers are tagged as having duplicate product and activation keys I think that they might let that slide...

Steve

P.S. I got nailed by Microsoft about 8 years ago for using an unauthorized copy of WinXP. They gave me the opportunity to purchase a legitimate retail copy for a discounted price ($125- ouch!) but only if I told them where I got the pirated copy. So I told them it came with a computer I bought on eBay and they then asked me for the URL of the website undoubtedly so that they could go after the scoundrels and of course I gave them the address for eBay [http://www.ebay.com] hoping that they would go after Meg Whitman...

Geez, that was almost like the Gestapo asking me to turn in my neighbors if I didn't want to get locked up myself.

[Mick Bailey]

Whether an XP install gets picked up depends on the license type. There are broadly two categories. The first is those licenses for single-machine installation such as home users and uniquely serialized OEM versions. When those are copied there's a greater chance that activation will be blocked. The second is the type bought by corporations, the education sector or large businesses under bulk purchasing schemes. When XP came out it was called the 'Select' agreement. These are all serialized with the same code for each particular organization. The difference with those is they can be repeatedly installed and uninstalled. The cost of the licenses is determined on an end-of-year true up to account for pluses and minuses. Those are the licenses that largely escape detection when they leak out of an organization. In addition, various Microsoft agreements allow for limited home use for employees, using the same corporate license key.

The main target for licencing is new products. Once an OS has fallen out of support it can no longer generate income for Microsoft, so there's no point in expending cost and effort in those products.

[Steve A.]

Mick:

Agreed! The high-level corporate editions of OS's such as WinXP Professional X64 all use just a few different keys. Among those darn pirating rascals the holy grail is an exact untampered ISO of the install disc along with one of those universal codes. Microsoft could not block those keys without pissing off a LOT of corporate customers...

Steve