Record Cleaning Systems (including one DIY!)

[R.G.]

The webpage specified a recipe for making your own cleaner, basically 4 parts distilled water to 1 part anyhydrous alcohol with a touch of a magic surfacant (that I've been unable to locate on-line).

Try Kodak "Photo-Flo" surfactant.

There is another technique that I've seen that uses polyvinyl alcohol dissolved in lighter alcohols. The PVA is a plastic-y film by itself. If you dissolve it in normal alcohols, then pour the syrupy stuff on the grooves, when it dries, the PVA has the dust and gook embedded in it. You can then peel the PVA film off the grooves.

There was also something about cationic surfactants that would permanently neutralize the triboelectric longing that vinyl records have for dust.

[Steve A.]

Try Kodak "Photo-Flo" surfactant.

There is another technique that I've seen that uses polyvinyl alcohol dissolved in lighter alcohols. The PVA is a plastic-y film by itself. If you dissolve it in normal alcohols, then pour the syrupy stuff on the grooves, when it dries, the PVA has the dust and gook embedded in it. You can then peel the PVA film off the grooves.

There was also something about cationic surfactants that would permanently neutralize the triboelectric longing that vinyl records have for dust.

Yeah, UPS just delivered the 16 ounce bottle of Kodak Photo Flo that I had ordered like 10 days ago- I think that they hand-carried it from New York to California... It used to be that you could find this in practically any camera shop in town, but it looks like Wolf and Ritz have bought out all of the mom'n'pop storefronts and *none* of them stocked this stuff locally.

I had known about "water wetter" previously, but for the life of me I can't recall the context. But I do suspect that it was something here at AMPAGE...

I had ran across a thread on the Steve Hoffman forum mentioning the PVA trick (which is carpenter's white glue- right?) and I think I would pass on that idea.

Funny that you should mention a "cationic surfactant"- would that reduce the static charge on the LP? How about adding a little bit of liquid fabric softener to the brew?

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

P.S. BTW the Glass Plus has worked much better than my earlier homebrew concoctions... I just added a few drops of Kodac Photo Flo to it which reduces the sudsing effect.

[R.G.]

Actually I think that carpenter's glue is polyvinyl ACETATE, perhaps mixed with polyvinyl alcohol. PV alcohol is apparently made by hydrolysis of PV acetate to remove the acetates. Elmer's glue is a mixture of both.

The pure PV alcohol is the one you want. Maybe a chemistry supply house.

The cationic surfactants were supposed to grab onto the anionic ends of the vinyls on the record surface and never let go. The theory is that they form a grabbing layer that holds the anionics so tightly that the static tendency is reduced or eliminated more or less permanently.

That's the theory anyway.

I have so many things stacked up that I'll probably never get down to cleaning and ripping my record collection.

[Steve A.]

Actually I think that carpenter's glue is polyvinyl ACETATE, perhaps mixed with polyvinyl alcohol. PV alcohol is apparently made by hydrolysis of PV acetate to remove the acetates. Elmer's glue is a mixture of both.

The pure PV alcohol is the one you want. Maybe a chemistry supply house.

The cationic surfactants were supposed to grab onto the anionic ends of the vinyls on the record surface and never let go. The theory is that they form a grabbing layer that holds the anionics so tightly that the static tendency is reduced or eliminated more or less permanently.

That's the theory anyway.

I have so many things stacked up that I'll probably never get down to cleaning and ripping my record collection.

R.G.

I just ran across this thread about using carpenter's white glue to clean records. I guess that they should have checked with you first...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/arc...p/t-99837.html

The vacuum systems work so well that I don't see the point of something like that (which evidently is being sold in Europe for big bucks).

Steve Ahola

[R.G.]

It seems like if you're going to go to the trouble of using real carpenter's glue, you might as well lay a disk of cotton cloth in the glue on top to make peeling it off easy.

By the way, I first read about that in Audio Amateur in the days before there was an internet that most people could get to. The cationic surfactants were the thing that interested me most. It's one thing to get a record clean. It's another to make it not attract dust any more.

[Dave N.]

The vacuum systems work so well that I don't see the point of something like that
Steve Ahola

Hey Steve,

you got your record cleaner going? tell us more about it, any pics?

I might just want to build one too.

dave

[Steve A.]

Hey Steve,

you got your record cleaner going? tell us more about it, any pics?

I might just want to build one too.

dave

I pretty much followed the suggestions in the Glynth article in the link I posted, but the turntable does turn the record as I clean it. I made up a label protector from a 1/4" thick 4" round pre-cut blank from Tap Plastics for $2.00. I had them drill a 1/4" hole in the center, and I reamed that out for a very snug fit on the record spindle. I got closed cell weatherstripping from Ace Hardware- 1/4" thick by 3/8" wide- and ran that around the outside of the disk (using contact cement to help hold it on and to glue the two cut ends together).

I modified a vacuum crevice tool by cutting off the tip square, sealing the end, and then cutting a slit in it the width of LP grooves. I then used the contact cement to glue on the velvet I removed from an old Discwasher brush, and then cut out an opening it. I hook that up to my Eureka portable canister vacuum.

I start off by spraying about 12 squirts of Solution #1 (the pre-cleaner and intermediate rinse), then spread that around with my $36 VPI HW16 brush. I then apply about 12 squirts of Solution #2 (the deep cleaner) and spread it around, brushing it in. I'll let that set for a minute or two and then brush it very firmly to remove all of the crap from the grooves. I will then get my vacuum out and suck up the spent fluid. I will then rinse it twice with Solution #1, vacuuming it up each time, and then do a final rinse with pure distilled water. If the grooves go right up to the label I may need to remove the label protector and clean the final groove with the brush and the vacuum.

I'll take the label protector off and then use two Discwasher brushes to help remove any moisture that wasn't vacuumed up. And then visually examine the LP to make sure everything looks fine.

Here is the Final Solution I've come up with- wait a minute, that didn't sound right!

==============================================

UNCLE BUBBA'S BREW
for Record Cleaning Machines

==============================================

Solution #1 (for pre-treating and intermediate rinses)

16 oz (1 pint) distilled water
40 drops (8 ml) 99% alcohol
5 drops (0.25 ml) Kodak Photo Flo

* * * * * * * * * * * *
32 oz (1 quart) distilled water
16 ml 99% alcohol (approx 3 tsp)
10 drops (0.5 ml) Kodak Photo Flo

* * * * * * * * * * * *
64 oz (1/2 gallon) distilled water
32 ml 99% alcohol (approx 1 oz)
20 drops (1.0 ml) Kodak Photo Flo

* * * * * * * * * * * *
128 oz (1 gallon) distilled water
64 ml 99% alcohol (approx 2 oz)
40 drops (2.0 ml) Kodak Photo Flo

==============================================

Solution #2 (for cleaning)

* * * * * * * * * * * *

500 ml (1 pint) TOTAL:

275 ml = 9.3 oz distilled water [approx 55%]
200 ml = 6.8 oz Glass Plus [approx 40%]
2 ml (40 drops) Kodak Photo Flo [approx 0.4%]
5 ml = 1 tsp 99% alcohol [approx 1%]
2.5 ml = 0.5 tsp (50 drops) Lysol Direct [approx 0.5%]
15 ml = 3 tsp Cascade Complete Gel premixed and filtered as below @ [3.3%]

* * * * * * * * * * * *

1000 ml (1 quart) TOTAL:

550 ml = 18.6 oz distilled water
400 ml = 13.5 oz Glass Plus
4 ml (80 drops) Kodak Photo Flo
10 ml = 2 tsp 99% alcohol
5 ml = 1 tsp Lysol Direct or Antibacterial Kitchen Cleaner
30 ml = 1 oz Cascade Complete Gel premixed and filtered as below @

* * * * * * * * * * * *

4000 ml (1 gallon) TOTAL:

2200 ml = 74.3 oz distilled water
1600 ml = 54 oz Glass Plus
16 ml = 0.54 oz Kodak Photo Flo
40 ml = 1.4 oz 99% alcohol
2 ml (40 drops) Lysol Direct or Antibacterial Kitchen Cleaner
120 ml = 4 oz Cascade Complete Gel premixed and filtered as below @

@ stir 4 tsp Cascade Gel into 8 oz distilled water heated in microwave. Sir well and
filter two times through clean t-shirt fabric (double over the fabric for the second
filtering)

==============================================

[Dave N.]

Awesome...

How did the record sound once cleaned?

Dave N.

[Steve A.]

Awesome...

How did the record sound once cleaned?

Dave N.

I'll let you know when I'm done- I'm still cleaning it! LOL

Just kidding... they sound much better than my earlier rips, when I might wash them under the kitchen faucet using my Discwasher brush. These current solutions combine about 5 different processes I was doing, which would take me about 12 minutes per album side. Glass Plus seems to do a great job on the "mold release compound" and I combined two different on-line recipes. Which brings the time down to around 3 or 4 minutes per album side. I can rush things but then I hear more crap between the songs. Besides that the "detail" and "sound stage" with the cleaned albums is pretty amazing.

Steve Ahola

[Steve A.]

Update...

I haven't added anything to this thread for almost 2 months- I've been too busy ripping the Library of Congress!

I ordered Tergitol 15-S-3 and Tergitol 15-S-9 from TalasOnline.com and the stuff works great!

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catal...roductID=17376

Minimum order is a pint so it set me back about $50 for enough of the stuff to mix up 200 quarts! Tergitol 15-S-3 is an oil soluble surfactant and 15-S-9 is a water soluble surfactant, so between the two of them you should be able to clean most records.

I still do use Glass Plus, which I believe cuts the "mold release compound" or whatever they put on the dies when pressing records. And for records with a LOT of dirt and grime on them, I get out the heavy duty sh*t which has Cascade Automatic Dishwashing Gel in it...

I'll try cleaning and ripping them with "Uncle Bubba's Brew" but if there is a lot of crap in the quiet parts of the song, I'll try cleaning and ripping them again.

One thing I learned is that you need to rinse *all* of this stuff off really well, or you may hear a lot noise at the ends of songs. So I've been doing at least 2 or 3 rinses, and for the final rinse I remove the disc protector and secure the LP to the turntable with a Medium Binder Clip (12 for 89 cents at an office supply store). With the disc protector in place I sometimes can't adequately clean and rinse the final grooves.

Speaking of label protectors, I had Tap Plastic make me up three of the discs, with a diameter of 3.5" for $10.00 The precut discs are $2 each but adding weatherstripping around the perimeter makes them closer to 4 3/8", which is too large if there isn't much "dead wax" on the record. But I did figure out that you can use the 4" blank without any weatherstripping, and with the binder clip it protects the label fairly well.

Steve Ahola

[Steve A.]

Just an update while waiting for my car at the repair shop for brakes.

I tried some of the household cleaners with enzymes- they do work great getting stains out of clothes! LOL

I think I have a culture growing in one of my spray bottles because it now glows in the dark. I may need to call out the HazMat team to dispose of it properly! <g>

One trick I just learned was turning off the TT motor and spinning the platter backwards. My record clamp/label protector is now just a 4" disc (1/8" or 1/4" thick) with a 1/4" hole in the middle that I drill/ream out for a very tight fit on the spindle (the diameter of which can vary from TT to TT). I glue a clear plastic round knob on it (55 cents)- the original purpose was to make sure that I could remove the record clamp from the record, but it also works great to spin the record manually.

With the TT turning the record there is a little trick I do with the HW 16.5 brush: I will put it in the 4:00 position and kinda push it towards the center to clean one side of the groove. And then I will put it in the 8:00 position and kinda push it towards the outside to clean the other side. (With my first rips I only pushed in at the 4:00 position to keep the fluid from getting on the edge of the record and creeping over to the other side- but then I noticed that there were a lot more pops and clicks on one channel than the other.)

I did get in a gallon jug of Phoenix Record Cleaning Fluid With Enzymes that Sleeve City evidently makes themselves. No more than 15% alcohol- but wouldn't that do a number on the enzymes? It does seem to leave the records very shiny with no water spots, but I don't think that it does deep cleaning very well. I've been trying it out for "quick'n'dirty" cleaning routine for non-critical records: one wash with Glass Plus (50-50), one wash with Phoenix and several rinses with distilled water. That cuts the time down to maybe 5 minutes a side- although I have been experimenting with letting the Phoenix sit on the record for 5-10 minutes to allow the "enzymes" a chance do their thing. (The long version takes about a half hour per record- good thing that I don't have a life! <g> )

I noticed that Mapleshade is selling a vinyl steam cleaning rig for $150- you could put one together yourself for about $40, but there is their Magic Beans, er, Fluid, for pre-cleaning the record and for adding to the steamer reservoir. I had made up a pair of label protectors that clamp together so that I could take my dirtier LPs into my bathtub and use my steam cleaner on them without damaging the labels. You'd think that Mapleshade would spend the extra $5 to include a pair of label protectors, but No-o-o-o!


Steve Ahola

P.S. On the software side I did spend $30 for a DVI cable for my 19" LCD monitor. I had been using just an analog cable but I figured what the heck... With the DVI cable I think that I can see the pops and clicks better when using the Spectral View in Adobe Audition 3.0. I think it is a more precise image and seems to be worth the extra expense.

[Gtr_tech]

Hey Steve,
Good info on the vinyl rips. I am glad you chimed in on ripping vinyl because I have done about 40 albums and I find that I have to re EQ some in conversion to CD but some albums just do not seem to record well. I just did a KISS alive II and wasn't real happy with the outcome. The sound was muddy and some what distorted. I'm am really now wondering if a good cleaning may be the ticket but also wondering if I need a new needle and cartridge as well.

Dave N.

There's more to it than just the condition of the stylus, although that will have an impact on the final result. There's also the setup of the TT (tangency, cartridge overhang, etc). In addition, any record thats been played on subpar equipment can be damaged permanently resulting in smeared "s" sounds and general distortion.....vinyl is *not* forever.

Anyone that is really serious about getting the most out of the vinyl format should be using a moving coil cartridge and a preamp meant to take a MC cart....it really is a night/day difference. I use a couple different Denon MC carts for critical listening and CD transferrs. They just sound more "open" and "alive" than any MM carts including my Shure V15 type IVs.

[Steve A.]

There's more to it than just the condition of the stylus, although that will have an impact on the final result. There's also the setup of the TT (tangency, cartridge overhang, etc). In addition, any record thats been played on subpar equipment can be damaged permanently resulting in smeared "s" sounds and general distortion.....vinyl is *not* forever.

Anyone that is really serious about getting the most out of the vinyl format should be using a moving coil cartridge and a preamp meant to take a MC cart....it really is a night/day difference. I use a couple different Denon MC carts for critical listening and CD transferrs. They just sound more "open" and "alive" than any MM carts including my Shure V15 type IVs.

Well, this year I upgraded my rig w/ an entry level audiophile TT (the Music Hall MMF 2.2) along with a Benz MC20E2L moving coil cartridge- and started my deep cleaning regimen described in this thread. I have been making 24bit/96khz rips and have been very pleased with the results, which I would attribute to both the hardware and the deep cleaning. Had I not upgraded the TT but just stayed with the "DJ" rig I was using, I think I would have seen a lot of improvement but I doubt if the quality would be sufficient for 24 bit rips.

FWIW with my new rig and techniques I am hearing things that I never heard before on my records- and with a sound that is very much superior to CDs. But there are some very nice MM (moving magnet) cartridges, like the Audio-Technica AT150MLX that do not require a special preamp or transformer like the MC (moving coil) cartridges. Perhaps more important I don't believe that a lot of the older "traditional" turntables have an arm that will work properly with a MC cartridge.

And yes, vinyl can be damaged- and that is assuming that it was any good in the first place. After cleaning and digitizing an LP about half the time I decide it is not worth any further effort- the sound just isn't that good. In many cases additional deep cleaning can help, but sometimes the fidelity just isn't there.

Thanks for posting

Steve Ahola