Why is it guitar builders won't pay a living wage?

[jrfrond]

I get would-be techs in my shop who come from trade schools and know jack. Then I get self-taught guys who learned by experience and can troubleshoot and service everything in sight! The thing is, and I hate to burst your bubble, but a trade school sheepskin doesn't automatically make you a hotshot, OR mean that you know what you are doing. Couple THAT with the fact that custom builders have a hard enough time drawing their OWN living wage, and I would have to say that you didn't make a wise choice of where to spend your $10K. There is also an influx of serious-quality guitars (e.g. Eastman) from China that, for many players, can negate the need to spend big $$$ on domestically-built guitars.

You'd probably be better off hanging out a shingle for guitar repairs. THAT is something you can actually make some money at, eventually.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this, and others here, are the voices of experience talking.

[EffectsGuru]

Pls don’t get me wrong here. I’m not out to get you personally. But:


Is that *really* so

Hey, “sand that area until it is flat and scratch free” takes me under five seconds to say and a day to learn someone coming right off the street (and yeah I do 100% believe that I can teach a person to reach production level quality in a day). That means it will cost me a day of my time and I can then hire someone that is OK with 8$ an hour. OR. I can hire you that knows exactly what to do and I don’t have to spend a day to learn how to sand, thus saving a day for me but it will cost me 12$ an hour -> 32$ more per day ->160$ more per week->8000$ per year. Now let’s say that this person of the street stays with me for a full year. Then the day I spent training this person gained me 8000$. I wish I had a more days that were as productive as that.


No you didn’t and yes it is. But it is obviously not worth 4$ an hour extra in the eyes of guitar producers. You said it yourself. Now once again don’t get me wrong but in my strong opinion you have been fooled/fooled yourself if you think that you can learn a trade like building guitars in a five month course at RV. You are still (in my point of view) a beginner. Hey, I have been building guitars for 15 years, the last five years as a semi pro and I still have a lot to learn (and still have my day job). So while you are still a beginner you get beginners vague. Simple as that

I think it is a case of you having to high expectations of what effects the RV course would have on your career. Once again have a look at the quote from the RV website. They prepare you for entry level jobs. And that is prep-sanding bodies for 8$ an hour.

Where did I say that it isn't worth the extra $4? I think your misunderstanding me ( I believe that a graduate of that shcool shold be paid $11-12/hour), people don't go to Roberto-Venn to get a job at Fender... they go there to work for small builders, and Guitar repair shops... and at those places (most, not all) it's not as automated, so the workers skill level is more important. And no I didn't fool myself into thinking that you can learn the entire trade in 6 months.. lol... But I did expect to learn how to build and electric and an acoustic guitar... and I can now do that. But yes, your right I did have high expectation s of what Roberto-Venn would do for my career in this industry, and it's a good school (it certainly has it's issues though), but yeah in the end I guess that I expected to get something inthe form of a higher wage for my time there... which i didn't get... On avg, people who go to college make more than people who don't... I guess I just find it hard to believe that you can go to a trade school and still not make a living wage.

[voodoochild]

I get would-be techs in my shop who come from trade schools and know jack. Then I get self-taught guys who learned by experience and can troubleshoot and service everything in sight! The thing is, and I hate to burst your bubble, but a trade school sheepskin doesn't automatically make you a hotshot, OR mean that you know what you are doing. Couple THAT with the fact that custom builders have a hard enough time drawing their OWN living wage, and I would have to say that you didn't make a wise choice of where to spend your $10K. There is also an influx of serious-quality guitars (e.g. Eastman) from China that, for many players, can negate the need to spend big $$$ on domestically-built guitars.

You'd probably be better off hanging out a shingle for guitar repairs. THAT is something you can actually make some money at, eventually.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this, and others here, are the voices of experience talking.

I can agree with that other than I do think the Roberto-Venn experience was good for me. I realized quick that I didn't know jack when I got out on my own. I had to swallow my ego in a hurry especially after I was put in my place several times. The repair industry is the way to go for a while IMO. I have been doing it now for over 15 years. 3 of which I apprenticed and the last 12 on my own. Repair makes money and it gives you a better understanding of what, why, and how guitars are made. Then you start building guitars, pedals, pickups, whatever on the side as you sustain a living doing repair. Get the respect, grow a beard, and wear glasses. Just kidding about the last part but gaining the respect is the true battle. You also have to understand that not everyone is cut out for this industry or skill level. It's hard work and there has to be a whole lotta love to make it.

[Bruce Johnson]

As a small builder, I take a little bit of offence to your comments and attitude. Are you really implying that we're just mean, indifferent, or small-minded because we don't recognize your credentials and offer you a nice good-paying job??? You need a sharp dose of reality, pal.

There is no money in this business! There is no sound financial reason to put together a small business building musical instruments in the US. Every single one of us, even the top name builders, work incredibly long hours and struggle month-to-month to pay the rent. The very best luthiers make only a modest living, and they usually achieve that by working by themselves and having something else (like a spouse's income) as backup.

I've been building instruments professionally for about 16 years, and I'm now at a level that most would consider "success". I've built up my name, I have a steady 2 year backlog of orders for my own basses, and I have a list of steady clients for subcontract work. I work 60-80 hours per week, and I make so little money at this per hour that it's silly. There's no way I could afford to hire employees, even at $8/hour.

Now, you'd think that if I hired a few employees, I could turn out more instruments, and everything would work out, right? But it simply doesn't pencil out financially. When you look at what customers are willing to pay for a high-end instrument, and back out the materials, labor hours, and overhead costs, the net labor rate is too low to be able to afford to hire anybody. That's the sad truth. This is not a sensible business.

Of the small builders that do have employees, they're almost all either family members, or low paid "apprentices" who are there to learn the trade.

If you want to build guitars for a living, you're going to have to start your own business.

But please don't accuse us of being cheapskates.

P.S. If I ever got to the point where I could afford to hire an employee, I wouldn't hire someone with credentials from a Luthier's school. Why? Because you'd constantly be trying to reinvent things and going off in your own direction. I'd want an employee who would be satisfied following my directions consistantly and with minimal mistakes. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

[jrfrond]

The unfortunate parts, as Bruce said, is that there really is no money in building custom instruments, especially in a market as saturated as guitars and even amps. Effects are another, and I am NOT trying to burst THAT bubble too, but the market is just SO saturated. Unfortunately, you don't see too many nouveau classics e.g. PRS and Taylor, that take root and become firmly entrenched as an industry standard. It is great to go to school and learn the "right" way to do things, but it can also stifle creativity and thinking, the biggest parts of instrument building and solving the problems thereof. Hell, Leo Fender was a radio repairman, but he was a THINKER. I've hired many techs in my day, and I will hire a THINKER over a textbook geek any day. I can TEACH a thinker. I am not saying you are NOT a thinker. However, I'd stick with repairs right now if I were you, and use THAT business as a vehicle for potential guitar customers.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Where did I say that it isn't worth the extra $4?

You didn’t say that it wasn’t worth the extra 4 bucks. I took on the glasses of a guitar builders accountant and said that there were no chance in hell that my client (the guitar builder) should pay an extra 4 dollars…

people don't go to Roberto-Venn to get a job at Fender... they go there to work for small builders, and Guitar repair shops... and at those places (most, not all) it's not as automated, so the workers skill level is more important

Yes you are right, but then you are trying to find a job with someone like Bruce or me and I cannot afford to quit my day job…

[hasserl]

Personally I think your attitude sucks, as if the world owes you something. I'm not surprised to see you're from Detroit. Sorry other Detroit people, but take a look around your town and see what that attitude has got you. I know not everyone there supports the union attitude, but this guy clearly does.

Just what exactly is a living wage? Who decides what a living wage is? At what ppint is it "living"? People in China live on a whole lot less than 8 dollars an hour. Maybe you should move there. Like Bruce said, I think you need a good does of reality. I see in a different thread where you think Ralph Nader is a good guy and you voted for him for President. You haven't a freakin clue what guys like Nader have done to small business (heck, all business) in this country. Nader is the guy that killed the Corvair, and I think he deserves a good swift kick in the nuts for that. But the effect of his litigation has been to drive up the cost of doing business, making products more expensive for consumers, and driving production offshore.

People that have supported political activists like Nader deserve to be suffering the effects of their support. Please don't whine to us now.

[head_spaz]

How about getting a job with a local music store doing service, warranty repairs, modifications and setup?
It's a great way to prove your ability, while building a clientele and a reputation with the locals. Of course every high school metallica man would want that job, but guys like you that are trained and having talent are harder to come by. You could do very well that way. It's a start. Gain some real world experience and stick with it, doors will open for you. EVERYBODY has to start somewhere.

Best of luck!

[Sweetfinger]

As a small builder, I take a little bit of offence to your comments and attitude. Are you really implying that we're just mean, indifferent, or small-minded because we don't recognize your credentials and offer you a nice good-paying job??? You need a sharp dose of reality, pal.

There is no money in this business! There is no sound financial reason to put together a small business building musical instruments in the US. Every single one of us, even the top name builders, work incredibly long hours and struggle month-to-month to pay the rent. The very best luthiers make only a modest living, and they usually achieve that by working by themselves and having something else (like a spouse's income) as backup.

I've been building instruments professionally for about 16 years, and I'm now at a level that most would consider "success". I've built up my name, I have a steady 2 year backlog of orders for my own basses, and I have a list of steady clients for subcontract work. I work 60-80 hours per week, and I make so little money at this per hour that it's silly. There's no way I could afford to hire employees, even at $8/hour.

Now, you'd think that if I hired a few employees, I could turn out more instruments, and everything would work out, right? But it simply doesn't pencil out financially. When you look at what customers are willing to pay for a high-end instrument, and back out the materials, labor hours, and overhead costs, the net labor rate is too low to be able to afford to hire anybody. That's the sad truth. This is not a sensible business.

Of the small builders that do have employees, they're almost all either family members, or low paid "apprentices" who are there to learn the trade.

If you want to build guitars for a living, you're going to have to start your own business.

But please don't accuse us of being cheapskates.

THAT is absolutely the gospel truth! I own a repair shop and over the years have interviewed a bunch of RV grads, and have employed several(as well as one instructor). The RV certificate(and whatever you learned or did to get it) is not an entitlement to anything and certainly doesn't do much to prepare you for the industry. I've had to train everyone I've hired. Finally after a couple years I've stopped yelling at my best RV guy "what did they teach you!!!!"

There is NO substitute for experience.

Just because you took an expensive class in sandwich making, and made three sandwiches with the finest select meat, bread, and toppings, that were deemed edible and delicious does not mean you can expect any more pay at the Subway franchise than the high school kid next to you. You're also not going to use much knowledge from your class because Subway has their carefully selected portions and menu already laid out. To do anything original, you'll need to start your own sandwich shop and learn a whole bunch about running a business and working with people...the kinda stuff you don't really get at a guitar building school.
You can also expect the same results as any other new business owner. 80 hour weeks keeping just enough money to pay your bills, and very likely failing within the first year.
Hey, part of growing up(and wiser) is coping with disappointment. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but really, seriously, there's NO MONEY in this business. It is possible to make a living at it, but you have to have an unusual and broad set of skills and experience. Even then, it isn't a very good living when compared to other trades.
When anyone asks me about making a career out of luthiery or repair, I tell them straight up, You'll make more money working fast food...and you'll eat!

On the other hand, If you wanted to quickly learn how guitars are built from raw materials with the intention of building them in the future as a side gig or hobby, and didn't want to just hole up in your garage with wood, tools, and books for a couple years, then its money well spent.

P.S. Wanna buy a guitar repair shop?

[spud1950]

[QUOTE]There is no money in this business! There is no sound financial reason to put together a small business building musical instruments in the US. Every single one of us, even the top name builders, work incredibly long hours and struggle month-to-month to pay the rent. /QUOTE]

I'm not in this business in any way,but it's not hard to figure that those who are and actually make a decent living solely from their guitar business must be a very tiny percentage.Here's some links that a sobering reality check.

Custom Guitars
http://www.google.com/search?q=Custo...8&start=0&sa=N

Guitar Repairs
http://www.google.com/search?q=Guita...8&start=0&sa=N

[voodoochild]

THAT is absolutely the gospel truth! I own a repair shop and over the years have interviewed a bunch of RV grads, and have employed several(as well as one instructor). The RV certificate(and whatever you learned or did to get it) is not an entitlement to anything and certainly doesn't do much to prepare you for the industry. I've had to train everyone I've hired. Finally after a couple years I've stopped yelling at my best RV guy "what did they teach you!!!!"

There is NO substitute for experience.

Just because you took an expensive class in sandwich making, and made three sandwiches with the finest select meat, bread, and toppings, that were deemed edible and delicious does not mean you can expect any more pay at the Subway franchise than the high school kid next to you. You're also not going to use much knowledge from your class because Subway has their carefully selected portions and menu already laid out. To do anything original, you'll need to start your own sandwich shop and learn a whole bunch about running a business and working with people...the kinda stuff you don't really get at a guitar building school.
You can also expect the same results as any other new business owner. 80 hour weeks keeping just enough money to pay your bills, and very likely failing within the first year.
Hey, part of growing up(and wiser) is coping with disappointment. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but really, seriously, there's NO MONEY in this business. It is possible to make a living at it, but you have to have an unusual and broad set of skills and experience. Even then, it isn't a very good living when compared to other trades.
When anyone asks me about making a career out of luthiery or repair, I tell them straight up, You'll make more money working fast food...and you'll eat!

On the other hand, If you wanted to quickly learn how guitars are built from raw materials with the intention of building them in the future as a side gig or hobby, and didn't want to just hole up in your garage with wood, tools, and books for a couple years, then its money well spent.

P.S. Wanna buy a guitar repair shop?

Careful knocking the RV graduates. I went there too and I am very glad I did so. You are absolutely right about experience being top priority. You also have to know that Roberto-Venn does a great job of educating. They bring top gurus from the industry(or they did when I was there) to give seminars on repair, restoration, etc. They show you the right way to do things so you don't go out and develop bad habits. I had seminars from Jack Swaurtz, Dan Erlewine, Frank Ford, to name a few, and they enlightened me with proper techniques and good advise. Not everyone in my class was as serious as I was either. Maybe only 10 students were actually good enough to ever make anything out of it. The rest were just there no offense. You have to expect that anyway. In less than 10 years I was pulling over 40k per year which is a very decent living in the south. I did work for Martin, Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Buzz Feiten, etc for quite a while. I was so busy I could literally pick and choose what jobs I wanted to take with a 3 month backlog on major repairs. All of this opened doors for me. A huge parts company came into my area and called me up to start a whole new division for them and I took it. Now I'm on the other side selling parts to manufacturers and repair shops all over the world. A success story I hope for some to see and it all started with Roberto-Venn. Now I am happy dealing with parts and I still do some repair work and building on the side for extra cash. So the bottom line is that there is money to make in this business. I talk to reputable repair shops all over the US everyday and these guys are up to their ears in guitars. They have so much work they can't believe it. Much of it is a result of the economy. Repair goes up and manufacturing goes down. Basic economic common sense. I hope this clarifies things a bit more. Think positive and don't let anyone bring you down.

Also if you want my advise for the repair industry, get really good at fretwork ALL KINDS, and acoustic instrument repair. That's where the real skill and money is IMO.

[Bruce Johnson]

I absolutely agree, voodoochild. The way to make a living in this business is to do repairs and/or develop a small manufacturing operation making a simple line of parts or accessories. Most of my rent money comes from being a subcontractor to other (struggling) Luthiers and guitar companies. I build custom necks and hardware, and do special machining operations. From a business standpoint, it's much easier to work with a steady flow of simpler products, and keep it all profitable, than it is to build complete high-end instruments.

[David Schwab]

It really pisses me off... I went to school at Roberto-Venn School of Guitar Luthiery (one of the top guitar building schools in the US, lasts 6 months long with 10 hour days, 5 days a week), and graduate, only to find out that the $10,000+ money that I spent to attend the school, apparently counts for absolutely NOTHING, as the guitar builders will hire someone off the street that can't even play a guitar, let alone build one, for the same crappy NON-LIVING wage of $8.00/hour that they would pay me to start. It's pretty infuriating... why attend a school like that? I got nothing but the knowledge, and thats great, but I can't work for $8.00 an hour and live in California.. thats just not even possible, it's not a living wage, not in Cali (where the majority of the work is), are there any builders out there that start a graduate at at least $12.00 per hour?

I think the thing to realize is there isn't a lot of money to be made building guitars, unless you are the builder, have a good reputation and sell high end instruments for a lot of money.

Your best bet is to do repairs and such. If you are looking to work for someone else, you will most likely be in a factory type setting doing work like sanding and stuff. At least to start.

To understand why this is, imagine you started a business building guitars. At first you will be able to do all the work yourself, and keep all the profit. If your business gets to the point where you can't build all the orders you have by yourself, you are going to have to hire people to help. This will be stuff you don't want to do.. sanding and maybe buffing out finishes, etc. Now you have to pay people, so naturally you want to pay the least amount possible, since even tough your business has grown enough to require employees, it doesn't mean you are making proportionally more money, as your expenses have gone up. You might need to rent a larger building, and now you need insurance and things.

The builders who's shops I've visited like Ken Smith and Roger Sadowsky only had a couple of employees. The bigger shops put you in more of a factory setting.

So what you are looking at is basically factory work for minimum wage, only it's a guitar factory. Also you went to learn to build guitars. If you look in the help wanted section in the newspaper, I'd bet you wont find a single ad looking for a luthier! You shouldn't have expected to find work doing that. But you did learn a craft, so you have to be resourceful to make a living at it.

So look for some music stores looking for repair people. That's a good way to start out. Then build up your own clientele.

[jrfrond]

Being in ANY area in the music business is all about coping with disappointment, and those lacking the intestinal fortitude to accept this need to find another field.

Hey, when I was a teen, I dreamed about being a rockin' tour drummer and being up to my ears in fast cars, T & A and all of the illicit substances I could handle. What I got instead was a good rep as a solid drummer and made (and still DO make) a respectable side-living from playing weddings, clubdates and shows, plus three Hyundai's, a nice-looking wife and Viagra! OK, I'm only kidding about the Viagra part, but I needed a drug reference SOMEWHERE!!! Oh, and my day gig is repairing pro audio and musical gear.

My point is that it's great that you did the RV school and have it under your belt, but sometimes you need to shift your focus and compromise along the way. Nobody's life really turns out like they planned it, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, and sometimes it's just a horizontal move. A little sage advice from myself and other old warhorses posting on this thread.

[Sweetfinger]

Careful knocking the RV graduates. I went there too and I am very glad I did so. You are absolutely right about experience being top priority. You also have to know that Roberto-Venn does a great job of educating. They bring top gurus from the industry(or they did when I was there) to give seminars on repair, restoration, etc. They show you the right way to do things so you don't go out and develop bad habits. I had seminars from Jack Swaurtz, Dan Erlewine, Frank Ford, to name a few, and they enlightened me with proper techniques and good advise. Not everyone in my class was as serious as I was either. Maybe only 10 students were actually good enough to ever make anything out of it. The rest were just there no offense. You have to expect that anyway. In less than 10 years I was pulling over 40k per year which is a very decent living in the south. I did work for Martin, Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Buzz Feiten, etc for quite a while. I was so busy I could literally pick and choose what jobs I wanted to take with a 3 month backlog on major repairs. All of this opened doors for me. A huge parts company came into my area and called me up to start a whole new division for them and I took it. Now I'm on the other side selling parts to manufacturers and repair shops all over the world. A success story I hope for some to see and it all started with Roberto-Venn. Now I am happy dealing with parts and I still do some repair work and building on the side for extra cash. So the bottom line is that there is money to make in this business. I talk to reputable repair shops all over the US everyday and these guys are up to their ears in guitars. They have so much work they can't believe it. Much of it is a result of the economy. Repair goes up and manufacturing goes down. Basic economic common sense. I hope this clarifies things a bit more. Think positive and don't let anyone bring you down.

Also if you want my advise for the repair industry, get really good at fretwork ALL KINDS, and acoustic instrument repair. That's where the real skill and money is IMO.

Sorry I sounded a little sour. RV grads are just like grads from any other program. You have the very talented down to the barely awake, and all points in between.(its just that I have to employ them for a bit to find out) The more effort you put in as a student, the more you'll take away, but even if you are top of the class, you're still just STARTING as a builder or repair tech. As you state in your reply, you didn't simply present your diploma and collect 40K, it took some time and hard work.

...and you never stop being a student in a craft based trade. ESPECIALLY in repair. Every time someone else designs a new guitar, we will eventually get to learn how it is constructed, and how it will go south from mistreatment. Anybody had to work on one of the new Martin 'Formica' guitars? Throw your wood refinishing skills out the window, now you're repairing a kitchen countertop!