Why is it guitar builders won't pay a living wage?

[voodoochild]

Sorry I sounded a little sour. RV grads are just like grads from any other program. You have the very talented down to the barely awake, and all points in between.(its just that I have to employ them for a bit to find out) The more effort you put in as a student, the more you'll take away, but even if you are top of the class, you're still just STARTING as a builder or repair tech. As you state in your reply, you didn't simply present your diploma and collect 40K, it took some time and hard work.

...and you never stop being a student in a craft based trade. ESPECIALLY in repair. Every time someone else designs a new guitar, we will eventually get to learn how it is constructed, and how it will go south from mistreatment. Anybody had to work on one of the new Martin 'Formica' guitars? Throw your wood refinishing skills out the window, now you're repairing a kitchen countertop!

No worries. Indeed it took lots of hard work and years of NO MONEY. Luckily I didn't have a wife and kids at the time. I would have never been able to do that now. The lifelong learning is what makes this trade so interesting. You never know it all, you just know enough to survive with what you do and you strive to be better every day. In regards to graduates from various luthiery schools, I had a few try to get me to hire them. I wouldn't have hired them in a million years. Mostly because they came off as holier than thow because they went to "Luthiery" school. Barf.....

[Faux Hog]

The food chain.

I just read the original post here and felt the need to share it with my wife. It tied in nicely with a conversation we had yesturday driving back from a family function, her youngest sister is applying to colleges right now. My wife got a kick out of the poster's sentiments that he had spent 10k and six months in training and expected to make 12 dollars an hour starting out. Between the two of us, we spent about 12 years in higher learning and roughly half a million dollars. Using the logic of the original post the two of us should have hoped to make about $600/hr. As my grandfather would have said, "Crap into one hand and hope into the other and see which one fills up first."

With out meaning to offend, I'm going to assume effects guru is a younger man. His attitude towards his circumstance is symptomatic of a greater issue. There doesn't seem to be a realistic understanding of supply and demand and marketability there. I hope that he and other young techs in waiting out there see the wisdom in this thread. The common lesson here seems to be: find your place in the market and be willing to work hard at it. Is it me or has the sense of purpose been replaced by a sense of entitlement? I work independenly in humane services (Yes, a real job to suppliment tinkering with guitar stuff) and have contracts with several high schools and I hear this all the time. It seems that an unreal expectation of success and inabilty to cope with failure is epidemic. When following the perscribed method doesn't yeild instant results there is a throwing of hands in the air and crying foul usually followed by several bad marriges, dependency, rehab.

When I think of the Roberto-Venn school I usually think of Jason Lollar. He graduated RV intending to become a luthier but learned, for what ever reason, there wasn't a spot for him in the food chain there. So what did he do? He found a need, filled a gap and is highly regarded as an author, builder and owner of a parts supplier.
I look at this forum as a resource for my hobby but I think a lot of us here are hoping to pursue a career somewhere in the instrument market. For that end this maybe the most usefull and practical thread on the forum.

Also, Looking for fortune in California hasn't been practical or easy since 1849.
You can't capitalize where you are a redundent.

[Mark Hammer]

Whether its making guitars, being a Ph.D. semiologist, going to astronaut school, being a world-class paleontologist, or a comparative theologian, there are a whole whack of professions where the number of people who want to DO that job, who are trained for it, and who are capable of doing it, is much larger than the number of positions realistically available. Certainly each of the folks who do end up being fortunate enough to get one of those positions needs to be adequately trained, and there need to be facilities for that, but a whole lot of them will end up doing less than what they thought they were headed for. That's not unique to guitar-building. I'm pretty sure there are a whole lot more Ph.D.s in English or History driving cabs or asking if you want extra foam than there are RV graduates doing the same thing.

I suppose the good news is that where a philosophy grad can rarely hang out a shingle and offer philosophy services freelance, someone trained as a luthier CAN do it on top of their day job, and maybe even hang in there until it becomes a full-time gig. I.E., you don't need to be hired by others to do it.

And, as was noted about Jason Lollar elsewhere in this thread, sometimes the skills you learn when training in one field/niche end up being useful in another. So, in the case of guitar-making, I assume there was much learned about woodworking and finishing. It may be the case that decent wages can be earned in fine furniture refinishing, and making guitars can be a sideline where the main revenue stream allows you to do it with less stress.

[EffectsGuru]

Wow, i'm sory if I offended you, but you sholdn't assume that just because someeon goes to a guitar shcoll that they couldnt follow directions..lol... that makes absolutely no sense! THanks for commenting.

[EffectsGuru]

Sorry if I offended you, but you have to understand, 8.00 and hour is a joke... I'm just venting. I am aware of the problems with trying to make solid profit in this industry, al the teachers there told us all about it. By the way, you should make assumptions about people that went to guitar schools .. you were saying something about them doing their own thing and not following directions...thats ridiculous... if I'm working for someone I'm doing what they need me to do and thats all. I have pretty much given up on trying to build/repair guitars for a living, as I'm not down with being broke or working those kind of hours (60-75 every week!), i'll stick with selling music products on the internet, and leave guitar building and repair as something to supplement income, and as a hobby more than anything, I just wish I had known when I signed up that they don't pay a living wage to start. I never said you were a cheap skate. I would never say that.

[voodoochild]

Well you have to do what you love to do. The rest will come as you stick with it. In regards to school, it can be a great thing for some. When I was at RV I took in as much as possible and kept good notes. I even learned from other students. As I stated before it gave me the jump start to gain experience faster than someone with no knowledge at all. Knowledge is nothing without experience but experience can take forever to gain without any prior knowledge. School teaches you how to learn and find/use legit sources of information. It doesn't help you make money right away. It helps you skip the BS and go for the experience that will help you the best. That's all. The rest is up to you.

[Capacitordeath]

I'm gonna add my two cents in on this as well, but from a slightly different angle.

As an owner of a Bachelor's Degree in Art Education, I can safely say that there is near nothing in my field that will pay a living wage. I did not go for a teaching credential, as I'm sort of waiting for an up-swing of interest in the Art and Music k-12 education, so I cannot work there. Graphic Design in this area pays 10/hr if you're lucky. Architectural firms was CAD engineers, Print media is shrinking, and the specs for a clean website do not balance on artistic skills as much as the ability to code. If a person of my education can find a job in-field that pays 30K + (which still isn't really a living wage in CA), stay with it.

Now, I've got a friend with a music degree who is even less hireable. The fact is that unless you're willing to live the hard life for your art, you ain't gettin' nowheres. Musicians have to do a lot of not eating in the back of a van, and artists need to to a lot of not eating in the back of a cheap art studio in the bad neighborhood, and you're in a trade who caters to these people. If you sell to poor people, you'll be poor yourself! WEEE!

The fact is, you spent a large sum of money to become a part-time hobbyist, unless you were to contact the big guys and see if you can be a head-drone in their foreign guitar-gluing factories. I wish you luck in your journey, but as i'm in deeper than you are with loans, I wish you less luck than me. hehehe

BTW, there was a lot of constructive criticism, and some righteous response to your sort of ranty opening post, and I expect you understand why you got it. Hasserl, on the other hand, was over-the-top and offensive. I'm hoping there's less than a handful of flamers like him on here.

[thumbs]

I would suggest that you go where the gear is; maybe Nashville or Austin. If your products are worthy you will be noticed. All of the techs and repair guys I deal with have work stacked up. Also it would be a great opportunity to get some feedback on your designs from pro players. Maybe win an endorsement or two. Another place to find work might be a company that rents gear like S.I.R. Most of them have a backlog of stuff awaiting repair but are unwilling to pay a $50/hr. bench tech to fix it. $12 to $15/hr. should be attainable. Good luck with your job search!

[voodoochild]

I would suggest that you go where the gear is; maybe Nashville or Austin. If your products are worthy you will be noticed. All of the techs and repair guys I deal with have work stacked up. Also it would be a great opportunity to get some feedback on your designs from pro players. Maybe win an endorsement or two. Another place to find work might be a company that rents gear like S.I.R. Most of them have a backlog of stuff awaiting repair but are unwilling to pay a $50/hr. bench tech to fix it. $12 to $15/hr. should be attainable. Good luck with your job search!

Yes location is everything. If you are really good but in a flooded market, you won't have a chance unless you are lucky. Find a location that has a lot of potential for business but very little competition. Trust me they do exist. You just have to research. You have to start local to get a name for yourself.

[Peter Naglitsch]

you have to understand, 8.00 and hour is a joke

Once again I have to disagree. I do not know about the minimum vague in US, but here in Europe that is pretty much the standard minimum vague in any industry. As I have told you before, someone coming from RV isn’t THAT much better, or THAT more productive to account for them 4 extra bucks. But if you are willing to have a go and take that entry level job you will very soon be able to show your commitments and your skills and you will be moved to higher skilled duties and get better pay.

the teachers there told us all about it.

And were you awake during that class? If yes, why are you surprised?

I just wish I had known when I signed up that they don't pay a living wage to start.

Wake up! They try to sell you a very expensive course. Why would they advertise it like “you will have to pay 50 grand and you will regardless of that only get 8 bucks an hour”. You should have done your homework and asked around to see what guitar builder/repairmen pays. If you were lucky someone might have hired you because you showed some interest. You would still only get 8 $ but you wouldn’t have to pay for the RV course…

[voodoochild]

Wake up! They try to sell you a very expensive course. Why would they advertise it like “you will have to pay 50 grand and you will regardless of that only get 8 bucks an hour”. You should have done your homework and asked around to see what guitar builder/repairmen pays. If you were lucky someone might have hired you because you showed some interest. You would still only get 8 $ but you wouldn’t have to pay for the RV course…[/QUOTE]
In defense of RV, it was pretty reasonable when I went. Something like $5 or 6 thousand bucks for 6 months. I know it wasn't out of site. I have no idea what they charge now but it certainly isn't 50 grand!

[Capacitordeath]

The price seems right for the right person, for sure, but did the school sell itself on a immediate turn of profit on completion? I kind of doubt it.

It's kind of like those amp-building seminars. You pay 1-2k, and you leave with an amp you build yourself. There's no guarantee of wealth, just a guarantee of the enjoyment of crafting a beautiful instrument. If your school was preaching about the hireability at graduation, it was a little conniving of them, but still within their rights. Academy of Arts schools do it as well, and has cooked numbers to prove it. heheh

[voodoochild]

The price seems right for the right person, for sure, but did the school sell itself on a immediate turn of profit on completion? I kind of doubt it.

It's kind of like those amp-building seminars. You pay 1-2k, and you leave with an amp you build yourself. There's no guarantee of wealth, just a guarantee of the enjoyment of crafting a beautiful instrument. If your school was preaching about the hireability at graduation, it was a little conniving of them, but still within their rights. Academy of Arts schools do it as well, and has cooked numbers to prove it. heheh

I certainly didn't make any money when I got out. I lived off of others for almost 5 years before I started to make money. But I did get a good wealth of information which headed me into the right direction. Now I am blessed in that I do make money(not a lot but a living) doing what I like to do. The thing is everyone should know like any business, schools, colleges, etc, are out to make money. Certain ones lose focus on education and try to pump students through for a worthless degree. If you don't have a clue what you are trying to get out of the education before you go in, you won't have a clue about anything when you get out.

[1guitarman]

I have been playing guitar for 43 years, never made more than beer money in any venue, I absolutly love the guitar, studied it on my own for the last 10 years, how to build-setup-repair-etc. and finally got up the nerve to try to build my own..."Lil Lester"...I now have a fantastic, custom made, solid mahogany body/maple top/mahogany neck single pickup blues monster...I'm a Plumber...Did I start out @ 30 bucks an hour?...I wish, I started out @ 5 bucks an hour...married and trying to pay the bills, Bro, there's a start to everything, Do I expect to sell my guitar for 2 or 3 thousand dollars, not on your life, no one knows me, only a few have had the pleasure to play this lil booger and even fewer have heard it...It cost me 15 years of knuckle busting and wading thru gallons of shit, to get to the $15 an hour mark in plumbing, been at it quite a while now, I have a name and a rep. for doing good work, so now after 20 years in the business I can say I make a living wage...Guitar building? for money?...yea, Ok, the ONE I built is GREAT, will I build another? probably, Will I try to make a living at it?...YA GOTTA BE KIDDING! everyone who falls in love with thier guitar wants to be a famous builder/player...for everyONE who makes a living at it, there are 100 who are living off thier wives waitress job...start slow/build up speed..."IF" it's what you want...You'll get there...90% of the job is just "WANT TO"...Peace and good luck

[Wmacky]

My guess is that 90% of the people that didn't go to college with a well planned path to a career in a well paying "Hiring" industry, HATE their job. But you do what you must to earn a living. Welcome to my life. The prospects for enjoyable well paid work seem to diminsish more and more as world economy changes. Lots of the cool work for the non white collar worker has gone overseas, and now pays one bowl of rice for a days work. It's my theory that in the distant future every Corporation will have only 2 U.S. based employes. The CEO, and the dude that cleans his office, and bathroom.

This should be your plan if you like living wages.

My "young" cousin became an RN a few years back even though he had no interest in it. He started making big money right away, and he's is now clearing $1600 a week. A WEEK! He hates his job, but all the toys makes it worth it. This should be your plan. You would have the extra cash to build your own high end shop out back, and with a giant beautiful home in front. you need to quickly decide how you want to live. You could have boats, motorcyles, fast cars, pool tables all while your still young enough to enjoy them. The music industry is for the lucky lottery winners, and the poor. There no room for a working guy with a family.