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A novel kind of guitar Tone control

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  • #16
    Originally posted by vintagekiki View Post
    I'd imagine you will have some insertion loss, no? These types of circuits are not intended for passive guitars. Usually there is some makeup gain.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


    http://coneyislandguitars.com
    www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

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    • #17
      I said that the idea of frequency dependent compensation was derived from the Standel equalizer. Do not forget that all the tone controls in many guitar mostly passive. Frequency compensation for attenuators measuring equipment also is passive. On a similar basis function frequency compensated guitar volume control.
      The basic idea is not change the tonal balance when using volume pot. It is known that reducing the volume pot, guitar gets a little darker tone. Using frequency compensated guitar volume control (tone pot at the right position or boost) does not change the color tone when the change volume.
      As I said, schematics is extremely simple. Try it, it costs nothing. After we can talk.
      It's All Over Now

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      • #18
        Originally posted by vintagekiki View Post
        I said that the idea of frequency dependent compensation was derived from the Standel equalizer. Do not forget that all the tone controls in many guitar mostly passive. Frequency compensation for attenuators measuring equipment also is passive. On a similar basis function frequency compensated guitar volume control.
        The basic idea is not change the tonal balance when using volume pot. It is known that reducing the volume pot, guitar gets a little darker tone. Using frequency compensated guitar volume control (tone pot at the right position or boost) does not change the color tone when the change volume.
        As I said, schematics is extremely simple. Try it, it costs nothing. After we can talk.
        What I said is wont you get some insertion loss? Equalizers, such as the one you show, have active stages for gain recovery, and that one has an active stage on each band. You can't get any boost from a passive circuit.

        So while this might give an even tone, it will reduce the output.

        The reason you lose highs with a volume control has nothing to do with the tone control circuit. The cap trick is to try and add some highs back, but it's never the same as not loading the pickup in the first place. The load lowers and flattens the resonant peak on the pickup.

        But I'l give the circuit a try when I get some time.
        Last edited by David Schwab; 07-04-2010, 04:17 AM.
        It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


        http://coneyislandguitars.com
        www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

        Comment


        • #19
          I am not talking about EQ. I'm just saying that I bridged T filter from EQ to try the idea. The loss of high tones, which is due to attenuation of the volume pot. compensated with a capacitor .00047 uF.
          That would not sound too sharp, T filter 1 x 220k / .0047 uF cut middle approximately on 500Hz and gives a balanced sound that is not dependent on the position of the volume pot.
          To be clear, is not a story of EQ. The story is about a passive frequency compensated guitar volume control. On the same principle work frequently compensated attenuators measuring equipment
          It's All Over Now

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          • #20
            I'm definitely going to give it a try when I get a chance.
            It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein


            http://coneyislandguitars.com
            www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

            Comment


            • #21
              I'm resurrecting this thread which has some interesting ideas regarding guitar tone control circuits. Perhaps someone could draw up schematics of the ideas (the originals were lost in the infamous Purging of Attachments here.)

              Steve Ahola
              The Blue Guitar
              www.blueguitar.org
              Some recordings:
              https://soundcloud.com/sssteeve/sets...e-blue-guitar/
              .

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              • #22
                I'm definitely going to have to check these ideas out.

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                • #23
                  Can't wait to see what happens as this thread is resurrected and developed. I really enjoy messing with the guitar circuitry.

                  I did the bass half of a james stack (textbook bass control) on a strat style guitar once, because I didn't like the 'dulling' effect of rolling off all the treble before I got to the frequencies of interest. The insertion loss of the control at flat was -6dB. I felt I could live with that. The effect of the control was a bit subtle, though, especially with clean tones and brighter pickup selections.
                  If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
                  If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
                  We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
                  MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey

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                  • #24
                    Does anyone know to program models into Duncan's TSC?

                    Escherton, what values did you use? I'm curious as to how you kept the insertion loss to 6dB, When playing around with the TSC I just raise the values of the unused portion but I'd like to be able to edit the models for a more accurate response. How do I know the source and output impedance of my guitar pickups.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Richard View Post
                      Does anyone know to program models into Duncan's TSC?

                      Escherton, what values did you use? I'm curious as to how you kept the insertion loss to 6dB, When playing around with the TSC I just raise the values of the unused portion but I'd like to be able to edit the models for a more accurate response. How do I know the source and output impedance of my guitar pickups.
                      If models can be modified, or additional models programmed, I'd be interested in that also!

                      Figure the input impedance as whatever you are using (pickup makers may provide actual values) or just guesstimate at 7k or so. Output impedance should be close to 1M if you are feeding an amp directly, and using the 'high' input.

                      On the James stack, if R1 and R2 are equal, then if RB is centered (using a linear pot) you will drop "about" 6dB
                      https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amp-...tack-analysis/

                      I don't remember the exact values that I used, but if R1 + R2 + RB add up to about 250k to 500k they should load the pickups the same as a normal tone control. Hope that helps.

                      edit:
                      Click image for larger version

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                      just a quick simulation. I have no idea if the values are what I used, or if they'd sound good. but you can see the ~6dB load. Turn UP the bass and let more signal through, effectively reducing the load at the string's fundamental frequencies.
                      Last edited by eschertron; 06-20-2016, 04:05 PM.
                      If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
                      If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
                      We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
                      MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thanks, I see how you used extreme values to remove the extraneous part of the circuit. Did you use the DCR of the pickup for your source resistance?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Richard View Post
                          Thanks, I see how you used extreme values to remove the extraneous part of the circuit. Did you use the DCR of the pickup for your source resistance?
                          Yes.
                          ...and I sense a subtle admonishment that using a dynamic impedance for the pickup (in the 50k range?) will reduce the pristine clarity of the results
                          If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
                          If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
                          We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
                          MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Not from me. I understand electronics like plumbing, not calculus.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by eschertron View Post
                              If models can be modified, or additional models programmed, I'd be interested in that also!

                              Figure the input impedance as whatever you are using (pickup makers may provide actual values) or just guesstimate at 7k or so. Output impedance should be close to 1M if you are feeding an amp directly, and using the 'high' input.

                              On the James stack, if R1 and R2 are equal, then if RB is centered (using a linear pot) you will drop "about" 6dB
                              https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amp-...tack-analysis/

                              I don't remember the exact values that I used, but if R1 + R2 + RB add up to about 250k to 500k they should load the pickups the same as a normal tone control. Hope that helps.

                              edit:
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]39563[/ATTACH]
                              just a quick simulation. I have no idea if the values are what I used, or if they'd sound good. but you can see the ~6dB load. Turn UP the bass and let more signal through, effectively reducing the load at the string's fundamental frequencies.
                              Can you post a picture of the stack with a SWEEP through all of the settings? I think that would give us a good idea of the effect of the control.

                              Thanks!

                              Steve Ahola

                              P.S. I found this thread over at Harmony Central in a post by Mark's pseudonym over there...
                              The Blue Guitar
                              www.blueguitar.org
                              Some recordings:
                              https://soundcloud.com/sssteeve/sets...e-blue-guitar/
                              .

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                                ...I found this thread over at Harmony Central in a post by Mark's pseudonym over there...
                                Did you intend to include a link Steve?

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