Copying classic guitars doubt

[Vihar]

You don't see Fender making LPs or Gibson making Teles. (The Gibson Hendrix model not withstanding)

Really?

Gibson Valley Arts Guitars: Electric Bass Custom Guitar Shop and Online Store, Guitar Video, Pictures and Specs

[David Schwab]

Really?

Gibson Valley Arts Guitars: Electric Bass Custom Guitar Shop and Online Store, Guitar Video, Pictures and Specs

But that's Valley Arts Guitars. Yes, Gibson bought them, but that's not Gibson. And they don't have Fender headstocks.

[Vihar]

But that's Valley Arts Guitars. Yes, Gibson bought them, but that's not Gibson. And they don't have Fender headstocks.

Look at the url noobie, you failed. Just admit it.

www dot GIBSON dot com

[David Schwab]

Look at the url noobie, you failed. Just admit it.

www dot GIBSON dot com

I failed? You can't read! I said Gibson bought Valley Arts, but Valley Arts is not Gibson. Valley Arts has been making Fender copies for years.


Valley Arts Guitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kepeb]

ha,
interesting topic, i might just poke in and agree with the main point tho.
you should be original imo, the best you can do with a copy guitar is that... copy it. do something original. i would be far more inclined to punt more cash into a nice esoteric or 'original' guitar than a copy. in fact i avoid the ones that look like major brands on purpose. make you look unoriginal.

i think you would make about the same in profit selling cheap copies or nice originals with a little higher price tag. i know which i would prefer.

on a related note, its interesting that so many guitarists need to have original/stock/official instruments yet choose to spent all their time playing other peoples music. it's either hypocrisy or contradictory but happens.

[Artur pickupmaker]

Me and other people like Strat and Tele, they are classic models. I would like to make some for me and people would pay for me to do it for them. I'm just starting to make guitars, when I became profissional I will design my own models.

Well, it seem to have no problem to make some copies of this models since I will not fake the logo in the headstock and I live far from the USA.

I have seen a Gibson Stratocaster and Epiphone Teles (very bad Teles), if even this companies make copies I can make too.

[overdrive]

Looking back, didn't Gibson once try to sue PRS over the LP single cutaway style body? They failed. Decades ago (1970s), CF Martin had a cease & desist ruling on the old Takamine acoustic guitar that resembled a D-18 right down to the hilarious "Takemine & Company, Est. 1965" headstock lettering.

I suspect that body-style copying is generally acceptable. Afterall, how many different acoustic dreadnaught or electric guitar body styles can you come up with at this stage of the game? With the possible exception of some of the famous Gibson deviations or the outlandish death metal offerings, just about every guitar shares some sort of similarity whether it be ergonomic or function. The headless guitar was probably the last innovative design in recent/past years. Leo & Les had their bases covered in terms of classic design(s).

Now similar headstock shape/design/lettering & model name choices may be another issue altogether & growing fodder for the various lawyers who thrive on this kind of litigation...depending on the geography of the 'crime'.

We wouldn't be having this conversation in China as they can copy, replicate & rejuvenate just about any of the above trademark designs without any serious repercussion(s) outside of maybe a consumer boycott or an import ban. On the other hand, if their instruments were actually of professional grade quality, offered at an attractive price point & some famous guy was onstage playing one...consumers would probably find a way to buy them regardless of any similarity of appearances to a Fender or Gibson. Fortunately, the possibility of any of this occuring within the immediate future is probably remote at best as China appears to be doing quite well economically manufacturing a variety of disposable, inexpensive commodities.

Bottom line...build your guitar in a manner that pleases you in the long run, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but too much might indicate an overall lack of innovation & imagination.

ha,
in fact i avoid the ones that look like major brands on purpose. make you look unoriginal.

Isn't the cosmetically impaired Nash Stratocaster little more than a blatant Fender copy (sans the Fender headstock logo)? Kinda' makes you wonder about those consumers who groove on fake/relic imagery...the 'instant bluesman' syndrome.

Maybe a Brazillian 'relic' approach might fly in some circles...it certainly did in the USA.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Actually, Gibson won that case against PRS. Gibson boys are real hawks about that sort of stuff.

Headstocks are considered trademarks, bodies seem to be in a no-man's land. During the early 2000s you could see lots of guitars with strat style bodies and other style headstocks slowly disappear. Ibanez, Peavey, and a mess of others all had pretty close approximations of strats with their proprietary heads on them, and they all were either redesigned or eliminated. Some folks at Fender later confirmed for me that this was because of discussions that the body design belongs to Fender. I don't think it ever actually went to court though.

As for the parts market, they all squeeze by and get licensing because they sell "replacement parts", not guitars. That is why you won't see any of them sell kits to build your own instrument, that would imply that you could call one of them up and order a strat, albeit in parts. The language in catalogs and on websites carefully avoids the idea of putting together a strat neck and a strat body for a complete strat. They sell necks to replace strat necks on your genuine Fender product, and they sell bodies to replace bodies on your genuine Fender product. Both Fender and the parts companies see the absurdity in this scenario, but they are just sort of going along with it... for now.

If you want to build copies, it is going to be a question of how many you make, and if it will be worth the time of said company to go after you and write up a cease & desist letter. If you make one, they won't care. If you make two, they won't care. If you make 10,000, they'll definitely care. Somewhere in between is the point where it changes over. Fender is more likely than Gibson to turn a blind eye to a guy making one or two at a time as a loving tribute to old instruments, which seems to be what you're up to.

By the way, Valley Arts has a relationship with one of those parts companies and there seems to be some handshake agreements at play there. I'd consider them the exception to the rule. Other companies won't get treated the same way. It could be interesting to see what happens over the next 10 years and if that arrangement stays.

Stay away from the decals, there seems to be zero tolerance regarding decals.

[David Schwab]

Actually, Gibson won that case against PRS.

Yes, and no. Mostly no.

(from Wikipedia)

PRS Guitars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1998 PRS released their "Singlecut" guitar, which bore some resemblance to the venerable Les Paul, Gibson Guitar Corp filed a trademark infringement against Paul Reed Smith. An injunction was ordered and PRS stopped manufacture of the Singlecut at the end of 2001. Federal District Court Judge William J. Haynes, in a 57-page decision ruled "that PRS [Paul Reed Smith] was imitating the Les Paul" and gave the parties ninety days "to complete any discovery on damages or disgorgement of PRS's profits on the sales of its offending Singlecut guitar."

In 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit reversed the lower court decision and ordered the dismissal of Gibson's suit against PRS. The decision also immediately vacated the injunction prohibiting the sale and production of PRS’s Singlecut Guitar. Paul Reed Smith Guitars announced that it would immediately resume production of its Singlecut guitars.

Paul Smith, the founder of PRS, stated "We are delighted that the appellate court affirmed what we and the industry have long known: the PRS Singlecuts are musical instruments of the highest quality that would never be confused with a competitor’s product."

Gibson tried and failed to have the case reheard by all twenty-four Sixth Circuit judges (denied in December 2005) and then by the United States Supreme Court (denied June 2006), which was their last chance to have their original injunction upheld.

In the litigation, Gibson alleged that concert goers in a smoky concert hall might not be able to differentiate a PRS Singlecut from a Gibson Les Paul. The appellate court rejected that trademark theory out-of-hand, emphasizing Gibson’s concession in court arguments that “only an idiot” would confuse the two products at the point of sale.

While no changes to the design of the Singlecut occurred as a result of the lawsuit (given that Gibson lost), some Singlecut owners and sellers have erroneously adopted the term 'pre-lawsuit' to differentiate their Singlecut from others.

As of January 2010 PRS no longer manufacture the single cut.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Thanks for that David, I knew about the first decision but not the second. I'm glad to see that. I remember George Gruhn in particular making a lot of stink about it, that the courts didn't ask enough guitar experts about it. My faith in American justice: +1

[jrfrond]

You will get yourself into some legal troubles if you duplicate the headstock's visual shape, even if you vary the dimensions. You will also run into trademark issues with names. I don't know about Gibson, but I know for a fact that Fender guitars destined for South America are built in Brazil, licensed to the Giannini factory in Barueri, Sao Paulo. I've been there and have seen the operation. I even have a Strat neck sitting in my shop that they gave me, made of marfin and ebony. So, you have Fender essentially sitting in your backyard, so I wouldn't fool around and piss people off. It's a bad way to get a start in the music business.

[earache]

The Case For Originality

The favorite classic songs that everybody knows and loves from the rock era were created on guitars with quite different designs - mainly Strats and Les Pauls.

It sounds like you have the means to make any kind of guitar you want, why not make something that is between the two, or entirely different in shape and style, and use that as your selling point?

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[David Schwab]

why not make something that is between the two...

That worked very well for Paul Smith.