Les Paul too bright

[Gibsonman63]

Subtle Differences

The 250K pots made a subtle difference. For now, I will just enjoy it as is and use it when I need to record something bright with snappy attack. I was hoping to make more of a player out of it, but I just don't think I can get there.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[axpro]

yeah, there are a few pickup choices out there with less bite and treble, but even those are going to be a LOT of expense for a subtle change. better to live with it and play your SGw hen you need a fat mahogany tone!

[jakeac5253]

The 250K pots made a subtle difference. For now, I will just enjoy it as is and use it when I need to record something bright with snappy attack. I was hoping to make more of a player out of it, but I just don't think I can get there.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I like to show the pickups lots of resistance, they always seem to sound better that way. I would put the volumes back to 500k and maybe make the tone pots 250k or even 125k if you want. Because the pots cascade it should have relatively the same effect, but you will have a better signal fidelity because of the higher impedance to source. Experiment with capacitors as well, I have found ceramic disc to be the warmest. Try a value of .047 or higher, if that doesn't work then you either have it wired wrong or your pickups just sound bogus

[axpro]

I think getting around the fact that its a maple neck LP with an ebony fingerboard is the big "trouble spot" the OP seemed to want to stick with the original PU's which probably sound fine, but getting a thick traditional LP tone out of a 70's custom takes some powerful voodoo.

[pdf64]

'I would put the volumes back to 500k and maybe make the tone pots 250k or even 125k if you want. Because the pots cascade it should have relatively the same effect, but you will have a better signal fidelity because of the higher impedance to source.'
With respect, the above is at odds with my understanding of the situation.
Assuming that both pots are on full, the impedance load seen by the pickup (excluding the cable/amp) will be the parallel combination of the vol and tone control tracks.
Because for most of the audio range (certainly anywhere near the pickup's resonant frequency), the resistance of the tone control track will be >> than the reactance of the tone cap, which can therefore be replaced by a short.
So to make the value of the tone control lower than the vol control (effectively ignoring from the circuit) makes no sense.
Far better to make the value of the tone control higher than the vol control, ie no-load pot.
A 250k vol contol and no-load tone control will present an equivilant load to the pickup and 500k for both vol and tone, but will lose less treble as it is turned down (due to cable capacitence creating a low pass filter due to the increased source resistance from the section vol control track between pickup and wiper).

[jakeac5253]

'I would put the volumes back to 500k and maybe make the tone pots 250k or even 125k if you want. Because the pots cascade it should have relatively the same effect, but you will have a better signal fidelity because of the higher impedance to source.'
With respect, the above is at odds with my understanding of the situation.
Assuming that both pots are on full, the impedance load seen by the pickup (excluding the cable/amp) will be the parallel combination of the vol and tone control tracks.
Because for most of the audio range (certainly anywhere near the pickup's resonant frequency), the resistance of the tone control track will be >> than the reactance of the tone cap, which can therefore be replaced by a short.
So to make the value of the tone control lower than the vol control (effectively ignoring from the circuit) makes no sense.
Far better to make the value of the tone control higher than the vol control, ie no-load pot.
A 250k vol contol and no-load tone control will present an equivilant load to the pickup and 500k for both vol and tone, but will lose less treble as it is turned down (due to cable capacitence creating a low pass filter due to the increased source resistance from the section vol control track between pickup and wiper).

I see what you are saying. Honestly I think it comes down to stylistic differences more than anything and whether you want to limit the treble from the start or somewhere down the line. True, limiting the response right from the start is more effective, but you also lose the ability to control the change short of swapping out the pot again, you can always simulate a lower value pot by, you know, rolling back the control

In my experience, yes, limiting at the tone control resistance is less effective, but that's why I suggested to go to an extreme like 125k and use a pretty heavy duty cap in conjunction with. In the end though, a high resistance volume pot is showing you a more accurate representation of the pickups actual sound and if you don't like the way it sounds with a higher rated pot, then you are using the wrong pickup

[Glass Snuff]

I still think the problem is the pickups. Something like Duncan Custom Customs would likely sound much better.

Using a 250K tone control with a 500K volume is fairly common, Big Al championed the idea on the LPF for years. It's effectively permanently turning down the tone control to about '7'.

Most players find ceramic caps to be harsh and brittle. Anything less than a .022 is not recomended for a Les Paul, and many find happiness with .015 or .021 caps.

Oh, yes - if the guitar is too bright, be sure it has the "modern" wirng scheme.

[David Schwab]

Anything less than a .022 is not recomended for a Les Paul, and many find happiness with .015 or .021 caps.

Both .015 and .021 are less than .022. The lower the value cap the higher the frequency of the treble cut. larger caps like .047 will have a darker tone. I like .02 and .01 on guitars.

Les Pauls have always been bright sounding guitars. Not as bright as a Strat, but not as dark as people seem to think these days. having said that, it was common place to run LPs through Range Master treble boosters to make them brighter. You can hear this on the Beano album (though he often has both tone controls turned down) and players like Mic Ronson, Marc Bolan and Jan Akkerman.

If the guitar is too bright, turn down the tone control a bit, and put the covers back on the pickups if it doesn't have them.

[jakeac5253]

The lower the value cap the higher the frequency of the treble cut.

A fellow engineer from NJ! We are few and far between it seems my friend.

I disagree with your statement. Capacitors don't have a 'treble cut' they simply roll off the bass frequencies below the corner point at about -6dB per octave. But all things in perspective a lower value cap will roll off more bass and thus make it seem like there is more treble by comparison, when in fact the actual treble content hasn't been changed in theory. I get what you were trying to say though.

Unless you were talking about the treble cut when you roll down the knob, in which case you would be correct.

[JoeM]

..y friend.

I disagree with your statement. Capacitors don't have a 'treble cut' they simply roll off the bass frequencies below the corner point at about -6dB per octave.

How does a capacitor roll off bass?

[Glass Snuff]

Both .015 and .021 are less than .022. The lower the value cap the higher the frequency of the treble cut. larger caps like .047 will have a darker tone. I like .02 and .01 on guitars.

My bad. I was thinking "less" as in "less frequency response". I also meant .01, not .021.

[jakeac5253]

How does a capacitor roll off bass?

Frequency dependent resistance, it's what they do. Resistors are frequency independent meaning resistance is even across all frequencies, capacitors are frequency dependent meaning the resistance at a given frequency is different than resistance at another frequency. That's not necessarily the major role they play in tone pot circuitry, but it is still a fundamental quality of capacitors in general.

[JoeM]

Frequency dependent resistance, it's what they do. Resistors are frequency independent meaning resistance is even across all frequencies, capacitors are frequency dependent meaning the resistance at a given frequency is different than resistance at another frequency. That's not necessarily the major role they play in tone pot circuitry, but it is still a fundamental quality of capacitors in general.

I understand that. But a cap in a tone pot is not rolling off bass.

[jakeac5253]

I understand that. But a cap in a tone pot is not rolling off bass.

True, but I still believe (and some may disagree with me) that simply having a capacitor in the circuit makes the whole circuit sound slightly different. I did a few tests a while ago between different capacitors and using jumpers and the capacitors always sounded warmer with the larger caps being a bit deeper or looser sounding and smaller caps were tighter in their response. This was with the tone pot full up, but I heard it. Not a huge difference, but enough of a difference that I could choose my favorite material and value out of about ten or twelve different caps.

[David Schwab]

I understand that. But a cap in a tone pot is not rolling off bass.

You would have it in series with the signal.