string core breakage occurs at intonation saddle, why?

[Steve Conner]

Cr@p! I'm sorry David, I don't know how I did that. I think I hit "Edit" instead of "quote". Hopefully tboy won't bitchslap me.

Anyway, You're probably right. Mine is a McCarty with covered humbuckers, and compared to other guitars I've owned with humbuckers, they sound like someone stuffed a sock in them.

At the risk of going OT, I'd like to hear your opinion on what would be some good replacements. Maybe I need one of you guys to make me a new kickass set of pickups

[hewo]

24W darco pure nickel roundwound fails at saddle letoff

1. thanks for reminding me to respond on some details worth mentioning in this discussion.

2. the discussion is correct regarding sustain and not releasing the string's energy into the dissipating structure, mind you, the structure could conceivably be non-dissipating, in which case we'd have a resonance over that sonic range. it's analogous to the guitar's treble dump resonating because the pickup's inductance is tuned with the capacitor's capacitance, in short, constructive feedback. i saw on television, suspension type highway bridges and also utility company high voltage transmission lines resonating with the "tuned" driving force, wind, resulting in over-excursions and sadly, failure.

3. yeah, a string providing service since 1994 is rather extended. most of my guitars are like that - don't fix 'em till something goes screwy. i did change out the whole set of strings. i use only five, like richards with the same tuning, so the 24W is actually at concert pitch D as in standard guitar tuning. the other important piece of information to provide is the pick material. it is rather flexible yet highly resilient. i cut it out of some kind of high voltage reinforced insulating sheeting used to insulate the metal flooring within high voltage electronic steel enclosures. i think it's glass reinforced because my scissors gets dull cutting it, and the nickel wrap also gets worn from the abrade. i favor pick material flexibility as it assists greatly for high speed strums, e.g., elton john's bitch is back. but for plucking singular notes, i have to depress my thumb a bit to bow the pick as this enables stiffening of the pick for harder striking.

4. in regards to the acute break-over angle, both, at nut and saddle, tendency is for "pillowing" of the string set, where the strings actually "puff" out from these two endpoints, until truly broken in. you can verify this by measuring the clearance (air) between the last fret and string underside. once fully broken in, an actual vertex is set into the string's core. that vertex actually helps keep the string in tune, assuming the structure and anchoring does not fluctuate. it's highly desirable to achieve a state where you need not have to tune. it is contingent with operating the strings within their elastic range. temperature and moisture extreme will be about the only variables to deal with, well, maybe not so much for that parker carbon fiber stuff.

5. i don't have any problems voicing the strings with "aliveness" regardless of age and minor oxidation. in other words, the lusciousness is already overly sufficient because of the vacuum tube's even ordered harmonics. i quickly realized this with excessive "aliveness" from elixir's product, especially when you intentionally work the strings toward this end. not all vacuum tube circuits have such capabilities and i believe all of you do appreciate those that possess it. sound is everything, it brings people's ears into the mix because it is pleasure. i see all these folks out there wearing some kind of apple product listening device. but they are not in pleasure as the ones i see during presentation. the beauty of it is it's perpetuation. good sound makes you play more, and better. in discussion was talk of "dark" sounds. those signatures are not self-rewarding. why they occur is another story, and often complex. good sound is a must, for musical furtherance and enlightenment. the science and technology behind all of it is not new. while true it is getting better, those instances are usually for professional advertisement and theatre soundtrack.

6. i will again take another magnified inspection of that 24W saddle on the slammer series hamer. i did see impressions set in by the nickel spiral wrap but hose impressions are insignificantly shallow. the objective is to confirm whether there is any type of burr (factory mass manufacturing) or edge that would induce breakage. it would be too premature to start carving away at the groove. in fact, a jig is necessary to retain and preserve the let-off definition during dressing. otherwise clarity would be compromised.

[Chuck H]

+1 with whomever it was discussing break angle. Look into that. But...

That particular string is the one that gets the most wanking in most styles of pop and rock music. When I replace strings on my giutars it's usually because a G string broke. I'll sometimes replace plain E (1st) without a string change as I break that most often. But the G is a close second and I believe it's because of the extra abuse it takes.

JM2C

Chuck

[Steve Conner]

Man, what are you smoking?! And if it makes strings last 16 years, can I have some too?

If a string breaks after 16 years, I don't think that's news worth writing about. Strings are consumables. If it broke after 16 power chords, then I'd be examining my saddles under a microscope.

I'd like to know more about your high-voltage fiberglass picks, though...

[axpro]

Well Hewo, you've certainly passed the "Mr Science" portion of the essay.

But real world tests are sometimes different than what the lab comes back with.

Old strings+ break angle (DOES matter in structural sound-ness) + possible burr or at least wearing in the saddle (some 400-600 sandpaper does wonders for that without noticable wearing parts too prematurely)

THis all equals increased Breakage. Maybe your fiddles stay fine, and you take care of them, but I do 10-12 setups a day on average, everything from bad import stuff, to PRS to martin acoustics. I see a LOT of problems, and have to correct them in a real world way... if i don't correct them and my fix doesn't work, i have a customer back at my door wanting free warranty work (which i do!) on their repair.

Real world tests point to a few fixes, which have been mentioned over and over. I've sat with a magnefying glass and inspected a saddle, and seen nothing, yet smoothing it over with some 600 grit stopped string breakage.

Up to you my friend.

[David Schwab]

Cr@p! I'm sorry David, I don't know how I did that. I think I hit "Edit" instead of "quote". Hopefully tboy won't bitchslap me.

You know I do that all the time! I swear that either I click on "quote" and it goes to edit, or that the buttons move on me when I'm not looking!

But it's easy to fix.

Anyway, You're probably right. Mine is a McCarty with covered humbuckers, and compared to other guitars I've owned with humbuckers, they sound like someone stuffed a sock in them.

At the risk of going OT, I'd like to hear your opinion on what would be some good replacements. Maybe I need one of you guys to make me a new kickass set of pickups

I had a guy bring me a brand new bolt on PRS when they first started making their own pickups. It had the "vintage bass" and "HFS" pickups. The neck pickup was really dark, like someone put a blanket over the amp. The bridge pickup barked and had no tone. These pickups did not have covers.

We replaced them with Duncan Alnico II Pros, and it became a great sounding guitar.

The newer PRS pickups sound a bit better, but not by a whole lot. Also metal covers will always alter the tone, generally flattening the resonant peak and making them mellower sounding. I put the cover back on the neck pickup on my Les Paul because I liked what it did to that pickup (a Shaw humbucker), but generally I really dislike the tone you get from covers. It takes the top end off.

People started taking the covers off of humbuckers for a reason. They are in fashion now, but that's never a good reason for anything.

[David Schwab]

3. yeah, a string providing service since 1994 is rather extended. most of my guitars are like that - don't fix 'em till something goes screwy. i did change out the whole set of strings.

You are forgetting that the metal fatigues and will not last forever.

i favor pick material flexibility as it assists greatly for high speed strums, e.g., elton john's bitch is back. but for plucking singular notes, i have to depress my thumb a bit to bow the pick as this enables stiffening of the pick for harder striking.

Flexible picks slow you down. You have to wait for the pick to snap back to position. You might think you can strum faster, but with the right grip on a heavy pick, you can strum faster and play single note runs faster than with any flexible pick. And they don't sound wimpy either. I use the purple Tortex 1.14mm picks. Flexible picks cause poor picking hand technique.

4. in regards to the acute break-over angle, both, at nut and saddle, tendency is for "pillowing" of the string set, where the strings actually "puff" out from these two endpoints, until truly broken in.

Strings are very stiff at their anchor points, and behave more like a rod. This is the basis behind the compensated nuts, such as Earvanna and the Buzz Feiten system.

You need to bend you new string a bit over the witness point to get it to seat well, but except for stretching your new strings, no further break in occurs.

5. i don't have any problems voicing the strings with "aliveness" regardless of age and minor oxidation.

You are forgetting that the metal wears out and the outer wraps get dents from the frets. You need to change strings more often. The string's core also stretches and has to be retuned back to pitch, and then it will stretch again over time, etc. Eventually you have to tighten it more.

in other words, the lusciousness is already overly sufficient because of the vacuum tube's even ordered harmonics. i quickly realized this with excessive "aliveness" from elixir's product,

Those are pretty dull sounding strings in my option.

And tubes produce ODD order harmonics. People get it mixed up.

In the end listen to the guitar unplugged. Does it sound good?

I think you are over analyzing things and drawing the wrong conclusions. Your string broke because it was old and you probably have a scared saddle. Those also aren't the best set of strings on the market IMO.

[hewo]

high voltage fiberglass reinforced insulation sheeting

the neighborhood children call it diesel, i don't understand why that name applies though. it's roughly four bills for a zee. it's just that children have extreme adjustability, not like old farts who get inundated.

the insulation came out of a high voltage power supply, i think for a military communications equipment. it's translucent with high grade finish.

it takes time to cut it using the scissors because you need to ensure no snags are present, otherwise it'll catch the thin strings and it won't break but your wrist will come to a halt. that's because it's like ply-board with cross grain reinforcement. it can not tear.

long ago in guitar player magazine i recall some type of punch that would ease pick manufacturing for mass production. stamping out fiberglass reinforced epoxy impregnated sheeting would necessitate carbide dies and likely dull rather quickly still yet.

somebody should go and make a business of it. it's doable and the demand for it will perpetuate since it's more resilient thus responsive. that u2 guitarist should try it and feedback evaluation. he's pretty whippy.

[hewo]

the kaman $2.99 009 thru 032 set is already installed

1. you are conservatively correct to heed trouble, potential trouble.
2. consider that the integrated tensional force acting decreases as load bearing metal decreases, i.e., the cross sectional area of all the metal carrying the tension.
3. you already understand that a 005 and a 010 at concert E pitch will yield different tensions. combine this with slack key tuning, which effectively lowers tension from the standardized concert tuning, and you will have "rubbery", rather, "flubbery" string tension. then again, combine this with a shorter scale and the flubbery syndrome prevails even more.
4. that's why you see all those compensatory improvisations, frequently extending tension length, e.g. string thru the body, badass wrap around ball stops, trapeze extension or the notorious gibson stop bar tailpiece. they'll also compensate similarly at the headstock to gain additional non-participatory string length. it all boils down to that famous vibrating string equation that links parameters of lateral displacement, length, frequency, tension force, diameter, material elastic coefficient, and so forth, altogether, damping set aside.
5. so what i am getting at is this. elevate force by increasing diameter, increasing length, increasing pitch, increasing deflection and you will more than likely risk breakage. the belief that heavier duty strings will decrease breakage is a misnomer because the material, metal, still retains intrinsic mechanical properties. the impinging saddle force onto the string increases yet it is the same metal properties withstanding a smaller impinging force for a more limber "rubbery" string brought about by a shorter length, smaller diameter, lower pitch, well you get the picture.
6. this concept is kind of reversed from what we'd normally grasp as "bigger is better". a good example is substituting a 25 watt power resistor for a 10 watt cathode bias resistor. here, bigger is actually better. it'll run cooler and it's resistivity won't thermally fluctuate, as much as the ten watt power resistor.
7. last, that discussion on "dead" strings owing to wrap decoupling actually deserves some commentary. you all understand that "working" that string causes eventual damping. but also consider the metal ages as well as fatigues, and so being, intrinsic properties drift. the core gets hardened and i believe the wrap too. this ultimately effects a lowered tension for the same pitch, maybe not substantial, but nevertheless, tension goes down. at the endpoints of tension, diameter necks downwards, slightly, but nevertheless it decreases. i think it was called the poisson ratio for conservation of volume. so once again, the "flubbery" characteristic unfolds itself by default when you don't change strings. i use to enjoy the aliveness of sound from a freshly installed phosphorus bronze set. later i realized, with age, the alloy embrittles causing another desirable sound, but that's contingent on the wrap not decoupling from excessive "working".
8. that $2.99 kaman set didn't even stretch an iota! i didn't tune once since installing it. that means it's stable, both, structure and $2.99 metals.

[Steve Conner]

We replaced them with Duncan Alnico II Pros, and it became a great sounding guitar.

Oh no, my local music store has the Alnico II Pros in stock, too. I got my McCarty in about 2003, I don't know if that corresponds to their "bad pickup period". I wanted to keep the guitar stock, but it's now old enough (and the frets worn enough) that I wouldn't feel bad about modding it.

The neck pickup I like, and both pickups together I like too, but the bridge I've never been able to get a good tone out of. The best sounding humbucker guitar I ever played was a Fylde Pack Leader that I found in a junk shop! The frets were starting to spring and I didn't know how to fix it, so I gave it to my brother and he sold it on Ebay, you can read the rest of the story here:
www.whitstableguitars.co.uk - 1977 Pack Leader

I still kick myself about it, because that guitar cost me $70, it sounded better than a PRS, and I now realise a good luthier could have made it play well again for less than the cost of a PRS

the insulation came out of a high voltage power supply, i think for a military communications equipment. it's translucent with high grade finish....

that's because it's like ply-board with cross grain reinforcement. it can not tear.

Hmm... Is it hard and springy like a credit card? If so, it's probably FR4 fiberglass, the same stuff that high grade printed circuit boards are made of, just without the copper cladding. It's super-strong and pretty hard to cut with scissors!

If it's softer, more papery, it's probably Nomex paper, similar to the stuff racing drivers' fireproof suits are made from.

Either way sounds like interesting stuff to make picks out of...

[axpro]

Ummmm, Hewo

If you are such an expert at all things stringed..... why did you post a question?

You obviously live in a magical land where strings don't stretch EVER after install. and you OBVIOUSLY know more than everyone here, so why post so much gibberish?

like

5. so what i am getting at is this. elevate force by increasing diameter, increasing length, increasing pitch, increasing deflection and you will more than likely risk breakage. the belief that heavier duty strings will decrease breakage is a misnomer because the material, metal, still retains intrinsic mechanical properties. the impinging saddle force onto the string increases yet it is the same metal properties withstanding a smaller impinging force for a more limber "rubbery" string brought about by a shorter length, smaller diameter, lower pitch, well you get the picture.

Is a helluva long and overly complex way of saying

Heavier strings aren't necessarily more break resistant, due to increased tension. despite thoughts to the latter

and THAT being said, I don't remember anyone commenting on your use of thin strings! Maybe crappy strings, but not thin.

I for one, am done, you can keep spouting off like a failed physics professor all you like.

[Steve Conner]

Axpro, even if you're done debating string breakage, I'd still be grateful to hear your $.02 on PRS pickups

[David Schwab]

Oh no, my local music store has the Alnico II Pros in stock, too. I got my McCarty in about 2003, I don't know if that corresponds to their "bad pickup period". I wanted to keep the guitar stock, but it's now old enough (and the frets worn enough) that I wouldn't feel bad about modding it.

Alnico II Pros are great pickups. The guy I play with has two brand new PRS Custom 24s. They are brighter than the older PRS pickups I have heard, but he thinks they are kind of muddy. He wants to replace the bridge with a JB (muddy, but loud). He also replaced the rotary switches with toggle switches on both guitars.

Why keep the guitar stock? Do you want to sell it or play it? Too many people get hung up on resale value. I see people worrying about that with Squiers!

If it's softer, more papery, it's probably Nomex paper, similar to the stuff racing drivers' fireproof suits are made from.

It could be fish paper, or thin phenolic.

Either way sounds like interesting stuff to make picks out of...

It's kind of hard to beat Delrin (Tortex) or Ultem (Ultex). They both work really well for picks.

I have a real interesting pick made from hard rubber. They are Guitar Craft picks as used by Robert Fripp. A little too small for my taste, but real interesting material. Thin yet vert stiff.

| | | Guitar Craft Guitars | | |



I used to use this back in the 70's:



Stainless steel!

[Steve Conner]

Stainless steel!

I guess that's one way of dealing with covered humbuckers... Grind the covers off with your plectrum of doom!

I remember the old anodized aluminium Tech picks, the metal wore down and left black residue all over my fingers. Right now I'm using a Big Stubby or my fingers. Not because the Big Stubby is my favourite but because I've lost all the other ones and need to buy more.

You're right of course, I bought it to play it, and have played it at least every other day since. And the resale value of a PRS probably isn't that mindblowing anyway. (mine isn't even a 10 top! ) Alnico 2 Pro for the bridge it is, I think!

Oh, and I didn't know Tortex picks were made of Delrin. Interesting fact :-)

[hewo]

fiberglass reinforced epoxy impregnated high voltage insulation sheet

no, no.
the sheet is ultra thin, like that three by five rolodex cards.
otherwise it wouldn't flex.
regarding pickups, yes, you have to consider interaction with the vacuum tube amplifier.
too much magnetism and too much windings makes undesirable performance.
the windings and magnetism has to be perfecto.
i tried bill Lawrence's old old humbucker and got exceptional results. trouble is you can't send the magnets back to the magnet laboratory to revitalize them because the construction is encapsulated, unlike gibson's humbuckers that can be carefully disassembled.
the other good results i discovered was the gibson melody maker's pickup and the gibson's l6s pickups. i wish they'd make these again today so i could get more of them to install into the other guitars. the melody maker's pickup is quite slender having a continuous aperture rather than discrete poles. i placed the aperture at the imaginary 24th fret and received fantastic telecaster performance out of the single cutaway nightwatch. some forum pickup maker made me a p90'ish slender coil like the melody makers dimensions which i mounted for the o'hagan's rear. that pickup maker sure knows what he's doing - it snarls extremely well like the original gibson p90. i recall he's out of canada and supposedly renown. i requested his assistance because the o'hagan utilizes a schaller wrap-around anchor bridge whose string spacing just doesn't sync with the industry standard pole pieces. it would have been better to have that p90'ish pickup with blades but who knows, maybe something else would change and the resultant performance would be less than desired.
i did send the alnico of the melody maker pickup back to some mainland lab who revitalized it. apparently alnico gets old, more so if it gets corrupted by magnetizing other masses or worse interacting improperly with other magnets. the increased performance from revitalization is extreme clarity, that unique coherent telecaster presence. it cuts through the mix and is highly favored under edged saturation vacuum tube configuration.