Is there any advantage to the strat tone controls using a single cap?

[Steve A.]

Other than cost saving... those pennies add up real fast!

I was thinking that it may add some "mojo" from the interaction of the signal from the two pots- kinda like simmering a marinade so that the ingredients blend together better. Or maybe like having a shared cathode resistor on an AC-30 style amp...

So is there any disadvantage to using a shared cap?

I usually wire them up with separate caps but I was going use one of them premium caps that cost more than a latte at Starbucks... or even a couple of them!

Steve Ahola

[David Schwab]

They never intended on having you use more than one pickup at the same time, so it's just to save on using two caps. The lack of a tone control of the bridge pickup is stupid IMO. But that was done a long time ago.

I always rewire my Strats to have a master tone control.

And don't waste your money on expensive caps. They are a rip off. It's just shunting the highs to ground. You wont hear a difference. I like to use mylar box capacitors, like this:



They sound great, and I can get a bag of them for the price of a latte.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I can't give you a complete answer, but here are a few thoughts.....

It has the added effect of not doubling up on roll off. If you have traditional strat wiring and you're on the neck and middle pickups, you have two tone controls in circuit. You've already halved the resistance by having two pots (even if they are all the way up), but by only having one cap you avoid having two running in parallel at the same time. This is why I like leaving the middle pickup open, you don't have that effect on that pickup position.

But like David said, they originally had 3-way switches and that was never a concern. Using one cap saves money on materials, but also on labor. It is faster to solder one in like that than to do two. Notice how the legs of capacitors are often used at near full length rather than using a wire (which I like to do in case pots come loose, stranded wire has more tensile strength), they were probably able to hook everything up dry and then solder all at once real quick instead of doing one joint at a time.

On capacitor types, I've been meaning to try something like this guy did: YouTube - Guitar Tone Capacitors, part 1: Evaluating Material Types but I haven't had the time.

[Steve A.]

They never intended on having you use more than one pickup at the same time, so it's just to save on using two caps. The lack of a tone control of the bridge pickup is stupid IMO. But that was done a long time ago.

I always rewire my Strats to have a master tone control.

And don't waste your money on expensive caps. They are a rip off. It's just shunting the highs to ground. You wont hear a difference. I like to use mylar box capacitors, like this:



They sound great, and I can get a bag of them for the price of a latte.

David:

I hadn't thought of the 3 way switch used on the early Strats. D'oh!

As for caps, I had bought some premium ones maybe 18 month ago for an experiment inspired by a thread here. They were all supposed to be like the old bumblebee caps.

What I learned is that they all were long cylindrical axial Russian oil and paper caps. The most expensive one was the L*xe which put the Russian cap inside a bumblebee case. The ones without that case varied in price from too high (eBay) to very reasonable (a fellow MF-er).

They all made my guitar (a PRS SE) sound sweeter throughout the range of the control. It is a subtle thing but since I have been playing that guitar for a long time I could hear the difference without doing an actual A/B test.

In the video posted by FunkyK, I could hear the difference between the first two caps (film and foil producing a slightly muddy tone) and the third cap- a Russian oil and paper capacitor that sounded the best to me. Funny thing- the difference was most noticeable when the control was set to 10 and 7. I think that was you turn down the tone control, the composition of the cap becomes less important because so many highs are dumped to ground.

Most of the time I use a decent quality 630v mylar cap from Mouser- not too expensive and I think that they are an improvement over most stock caps.

With caps, the actual capacitance is only one of the various factors that will effect the sound- there are other parameters like ESR which also have an effect.

But I do agree with your basic premise- there is no need to pay outrageous prices for premium caps. If you can figure out what they are buying and where you can cut out the middleman and save a real bundle.

I do prefer a cap with longer leads than the one in the picture you posted- which are great for pcb's that are designed with them in mind.

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

My only beef with the video is that he did the tests with a VOX modeling amp. I have one of those little things and never use it, it isn't great for reference tones because it tends to make guitars sound the same more than other amps. As an amplifier that can be a good thing or a bad thing, but I think for reference work in guitar teching it is a bad thing.

On the caps, I've recently discovered that with some patience and a mouser catalog you can dodge the super high prices. You can get some basic decent caps for less money than the ceramics from most guitar parts suppliers. I just got some of the metalized polyester ones in the mail that will be my go-to instead of the ceramics.

[Steve A.]

My only beef with the video is that he did the tests with a VOX modeling amp. I have one of those little things and never use it, it isn't great for reference tones because it tends to make guitars sound the same more than other amps. As an amplifier that can be a good thing or a bad thing, but I think for reference work in guitar teching it is a bad thing.

On the caps, I've recently discovered that with some patience and a mouser catalog you can dodge the super high prices. You can get some basic decent caps for less money than the ceramics from most guitar parts suppliers. I just got some of the metalized polyester ones in the mail that will be my go-to instead of the ceramics.

Good point about the amp! It would be a better test if he was running the guitar into a tube stage.

As for ceramics they do have their place in the pantheon of Capacitordom. Many/most Marshall fanatics prefer the sound of ceramics as a treble cap. IMO the ceramics have a grainy sound, not as sharp as the polyester ones or as solid as mica caps. (All of these words are very subjective and someone may hear things differently than me.)

I usually prefer the mica caps for the treble and bright caps in a traditional blackface design. I tried them in the RC network separating the reverb circuitry input and output signals (the traditional 3m3 resistor and 10pF cap) with mixed results- I like both ceramic and mica (I once put them on a mini DPDT switch so that I could AB them).

One other advantage: if you need a small value cap rated at 1kv, the ceramics are cheap and small.

BTW no one has mentioned polypropylene. When used as a coupling cap I have found them to be a bit brighter than mylar (polyester). So I stock both of them in values that I typically need.

Just my two cents worth...

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

[Mark Hammer]

There is no earthly logical reason why the tone cap of a neck pickup should be exactly the same value as that of a bridge pickup. All that keeps them the same (and permits the use of a single value for the dual tone pots on a Strat) is the sheer dead weight of precedent.

[Mike Sulzer]

The definitive work on capacitor distortion is by C. Bateman. (capsound3.pdf; 1 and 2 describe his test setup).

It is hard to see how even the worst capacitor would be a problem in a guitar, especially with the tone control on ten. This reduces the effect of the capacitor distortion by maybe 100 times.

[David Schwab]

It is hard to see how even the worst capacitor would be a problem in a guitar, especially with the tone control on ten. This reduces the effect of the capacitor distortion by maybe 100 times.

I agree. I have very good ears, and i don't hear a difference between types of caps of the same value when used as a guitar tone control.

Now of course some cheap ceramic caps have poor tolerances. That you can hear.

[dai h.]

is there anything here that sounds plausible (in regards to different caps--the "magic bumblebees" etc.--making an audible difference)?

Antique Radio Forums :: View topic - Strange results when testing capacitors

(I have no idea if the info does but recalled that the link looked interesting.)

[Steve A.]

I can't give you a complete answer, but here are a few thoughts.....

It has the added effect of not doubling up on roll off. If you have traditional strat wiring and you're on the neck and middle pickups, you have two tone controls in circuit. You've already halved the resistance by having two pots (even if they are all the way up), but by only having one cap you avoid having two running in parallel at the same time. This is why I like leaving the middle pickup open, you don't have that effect on that pickup position.
...

Everybody asks me to wire up the neck and middle pickups to one pot and the bridge pickup to the other. It never occurred to me to have the middle pickup connected to neither but I just tried it and it worked really well. I never really used the middle pickup much except in conjunction with the neck or bridge pickups but now it has its own unique personality and I love it!

Steve Ahola

[kldguitar]

cap is important

Cap is very important espcially in signal circuit. you need use poly capTube Guitar amplifier,effect pedal and studio gear manufactory kldguitar

[Steve A.]

I agree. I have very good ears, and i don't hear a difference between types of caps of the same value when used as a guitar tone control...

David:

I respect your opinion but maybe it is one of those obsessive/compulsive things... Seriously.

When I do hear a difference it is a subtle thing that might not be that noticeable but it seems like I get a lot more good-sounding usable settings from my tone control.

A lot of people I respect (mainly blues guitarists) have found caps that work really well for them. Snake oil? Smoke and mirrors? Perhaps so but I still hear a difference with some of them...

I do know that once someone plugs into a multi-processor all subtleties are gone.

Steve Ahola

P.S. Those baby caps would be great for some of the complicated wiring harnesses where there really isn't much room to wire a regular cap to a push-pull switch. Like in a tele...

[David Schwab]

Cap is very important espcially in signal circuit. you need use poly capTube Guitar amplifier,effect pedal and studio gear manufactory kldguitar

Passive tone controls on guitars aren't really putting the cap in the signal path.

In those cases I agree that different caps sound different, even with solid state devices.

[David Schwab]

David:

I respect your opinion but maybe it is one of those obsessive/compulsive things... Seriously.

When I do hear a difference it is a subtle thing that might not be that noticeable but it seems like I get a lot more good-sounding usable settings from my tone control.

A lot of people I respect (mainly blues guitarists) have found caps that work really well for them. Snake oil? Smoke and mirrors? Perhaps so but I still hear a difference with some of them...

Steve, where you hear the cap is with the tone control on zero. In between say 2 and 10, and you are mostly hearing the resistance of the pot to ground. Possibly some of the caps have different resistance characteristics?

The other thing is the tolerance of the cap. We know that ceramic caps are probably not very close to their rated value as compared to film caps. But what about the old style caps? A cap that is higher than it's listed value will of course sound darker than one that's closer.

I like the film caps because I feel you get a more resonant tone when the control is on zero. I find the control to be quiet useable throughout its range, and often use it part way down. I have some of the cheapie greenies from Radio Shack in some guitars, and they sound good as well. You would be hard pressed telling the difference when picking up two guitars with different caps. I'm sure a rotary switch might show up a difference, but until I try it I can't say. But that's the only real way to tell.

I do know that once someone plugs into a multi-processor all subtleties are gone.

Probably putting an active circuit in there is buffering the guitar from the rest of the chain.