My old guitar isn't in tune with itself

[Jay_TWS]

Hello everyone I just signed up to this forum because I'm looking for help with my 1964 German Triumphator cataloge guitar.

Here is a picture.

Just to clarify what I mean by out of tune, I tune all the strings correctly but if I play a chord it is out. I bought it in a sorry state and a new nut had to be fitted because the orginal was missing.

I'm told that the intonation can't be changed due to the way it is strung or the bridge or something. I am a bit of a novice techwise really.

I'm a massive fan of old hotrod guitars so I really don't wanna give up on this one.

Thank you all for your time!

[oc disorder]

Hi Jay TWS and welcome to the forum

First I suggest you oogle..
" setting up intonation on a guitar "
Here's some info from the first hit
Setting Up Your Electric Guitar

SETTING INTONATION:
Most electric guitars provide individual string length adjustment for setting intonation. Fine tuning this length insures that your guitar plays in tune all the way up and down the neck.
Using an electronic tuner, tune your guitar to pitch.
One string at a time, play the harmonic at the 12th fret (Figure 6) and then play the fretted 12th fret note.
If the fretted note is sharper than the harmonic, increase the string length slightly until both notes register the same on your tuner. (Figure 7)
If the fretted note is flat compared to the harmonic shorten the string length slightly until both notes register the same on your tuner. (Figure 7)
Repeat the procedure on all strings until the harmonic and the fretted notes are the same.

As you can see the string length adjustment helps tune the strings relative to each other.
So how the strings terminate at either end is important.
The nut (that you replaced) on a lot of guitars is the point where the strings leave the headstock
and if uneven can affect the tuning.
From your photo it appears the guitar has a Zero fret ie the nut is not the "last port of call" for the strings at the headstock end.
If thats the case the nut will not affect the tuning.
Also from your photo its hard to tell what the bridge is.I suspect it is a non adjustable one.
You may have to fit an adjustable bridge
eg
STEWMAC.COM : Gotoh Tune-o-matic Bridge

It's also possible the bridge has been put on in reverse affecting the string length.
It could have moved which would affect it too.
If you look closely you may be able to see indents on the top indicating what gauge string has been pressing into it.
Posting a close up photo here of it may help the experts.
The "wang bar " too may not be all that stable when at rest and may be more trouble than its worth.
Any twists in the neck and worn frets would also contribute to the problem.

In summary check the bridge position and see if it has been rotated 180 deg.

While you are waiting for some more experienced replies I suggest researching "setting up intonation on a guitar ".

[martin manning]

The linked photo can be enlarged, and gives a pretty good view. It has a zero fret, so the nut can't affect the intonation (for better or worse). The saddles are not adjustable for intonation, only for string height, and not individually. If it's mounted correctly, the bass strings should be longer than the treble strings. I'll assume you or whomever looked it over for you would have caught that. String height (action) and neck relief can affect intonation, so if the truss rod and saddle height aren't adjusted correctly, maybe start there. There is one thing you can do, short of replacing the bridge; change the string gauge(s) to something that better matches the saddle's fixed string length offsets.

[WholeToneMusic]

Nice looking guitar, I could see why you would want to keep it. Is there a way to adjust the saddles foward or backward on the bridge? Can't tell from the pic.
As a last resort if you don't use the tremolo bar and you have access to the bottom of the tremolo cavity you may be able to shim it with a small block of wood to get the proper intonation. First you would have to find out if the intonation is sharp or flat, this would help you figure out which side of the tremolo block to shim. If it's within about 4/64ths of an inch you may be able to set it this way. By shimming the trem block this will also help stablize the bridge for better intonation. If the notes are sharp then the bridge needs to be moved back, play the open string followed by the 12th fret note, If the notes are flat the bridge needs to be moved forward. You may have to adjust the shim a few times to get it close. You will also need to reset the action if you have to move the bridge to far in either direction.

[Sock Puppet]

Might sound daft, but has the nut been cut low enough so that the strings actually rest on the zero fret?

Just a thought.

[Brad1]

Funky guitar, dude. I like it.

As well as everything else already mentioned. I noticed something on the headstock/tuners. Looks like someone replaced the original ones with ????

The original ones would most likely have been white oval or odd-shaped plastic knobs, and likely were replaced because they deteriorated, or just because they sucked. Did they fit the proper diameter ones in? Are the posts wobbly at all? Do the tuners, themselves work smoothly and tightly? Look around the tuning post rings. You can see some of what looks like it may be chipped parts missing. Are the tuner holes in the headstock worn, enlarged, chipped out...whatever? That won't cause intonation problems, but it could cause tuning stability problems. One good chord bash, and the tuners shift/loosen/turn...whatever.

After you tune, do you recheck your tuning immediately? Do you have to constantly chase your tail? In other words, you tune the low E, then on up to the high E. Now, since you may have tightened 5 other strings up, is it still in tune, or did the first tuned strings maybe go flat? If so, can you just do a small micro-retune, and have it good...as far as open string tuning? If not, and it keeps going out, then it could be several things.

It could be something with the neck that won't stabilize. Is the neck screwed on tightly to the body? Are the neck screw holes wallowed, or the body screw holes a bit stripped...allowing the neck to shift a bit?

It would more likely be that whammy messing with you. Or, it could be bad tuners, etc.

Try to narrow it down a bit. Check the nut-to-zero fret relationship. Good? Tune it up. See if it keeps tuned, at least as far as the open tuning that you did. Good? Play around with it a bit, and see if it holds its open tuning. Good? Then, if it's holding its tuning, and still chords, etc. are out of tune...it's possibly an intonation problem.

Take a close look at that zero fret. Is it flat and smooth all the way across? Does it look like there are any worn spots. Look at where the 2nd string (the B string) rests on the zero fret. If someone spent a lot of time playing open chords, that's liable to be more worn than other spots. (Am, C, D7, F, etc.) rub on that first fret spot, followed by probably the 3rd string first fret (E). If any spots on the zero fret are worn, that will change the relationship.

Sight down the neck to see if it's straight, twisted, or has any humps. Just look down the end of it from the body end, and move it slowly to see if all the frets appear and disappear consistently across as you move it slowly up and down. (I wear safety glasses when I do that...just in case a string decides it wants to snap right then). It should look like a perfectly straight railroad track going off in the distance. You'll see it. If the neck is twisting, or has a hump or some other odd thing...that's not good.

It appears to have a truss rod, it could be worn/broke/loosened, etc. It may not be keeping the neck stable enough as you tune, or could be tweaking when you start playing.

It could be any one, or a combination of any, of these things. Almost sounds like the most likely suspects at this point would be intonation problems, and/or the cheezoid whammy setup. Could be one of those, and one or more of the other things...which would likely exacerbate the problem.

Process of elimination. Try to find out what it ISN'T, then you can have a better chance of what it IS. Check'em all out.

Good luck.

Brad1

[dirtyroger]

Another point i may add to the above suggestions would be that the pickups may be causing problesm with the intonation. The magnets in the picups can produce a slight pull on the strings causing them sound out of tune adjust the pickup height or each pole. I've got loads of info on my site (link below) about setting up your guitar maybe some of it will help.

[Knasher]

I would suggest that your nut is cut too high. Effectively you may be stretching the strings when you fret a note, causing them to go high in relation to the open notes. If that is the case remove the nut and sand down the base till you get a better result. I don't have the correct measurements but they'll be 'out there' somewhere.

[trevorus]

Guitar has a zero fret. The nut is only for string alignment. The bridge is the culprit here. If you look at a Gibson style bridge, you can see the adjustability of the string lengths, which this sort of guitar doesn't have. That's your cause of the lack of intonation.

[jrfrond]

What that guitar REALLY needs is an intonatable, roller-saddle bridge, and you might want to consider upgrading the tuners as well, if you want it to be a player guitar.

You might be able to have a guitar tech reprofile the existing bridge to correct the intonation, but it still leaves you with the issue of the strings hanging up in the stationary bridge slots when using the tremolo.

If this was my guitar, this would be the fix.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

This looks like a dead thread, but I wanted to offer some input...

I can tell just by looking at your picture that the string height is way too high. Instruments with crazy high action have intonation problems, even instruments with adjustable saddles. If the neck looks okay and you run out of adjustment with the bridge, the neck angle can be adjusted on this relatively easily. It is common for guitars of this era to be designed with no neck angle and a on-top tailpiece making it hard to navigate a good set up. Playing with the neck angle is the solution.

The nut/zero fret CAN in fact be a culprit. It was pretty common practice in the 60s and 70s to either use a larger fret wire for the zero fret (Gretsch did this a bit) or to dress the frets while omitting the zero fret, effectively leaving the nut too high. Part of doing a setup on a zero fret guitar is adjusting this fret height - not simply ignoring it and assuming it is correct simply because it is a fret holding up the strings rather than the nut.

The intonation at the bridge on this guitar IS adjustable. It just isn't EASILY adjustable. It looks from the picture (just eyeballing it, but that isn't too reliable) to be a bit too far back. Have you checked the intonation with a tuner? If it is flat, that is the case. It can be moved up significantly. It would have to be pulled up from where it is, have its holes plugged, strung up whilst floating, and tuned. Upon finding a good spot, the guitar can be redrilled to put the the bridge in the correct place. It won't look original because the bridge won't line up perfectly with the bottom of the pickguard, but it will play in tune. If it is really far out of whack, this will have to be done regardless, even with a new Gibson style bridge.

Just remember... everything can be fixed. Anything after that is just weakness.