Stainless frets

[Chuck H]

OK, please forgive me some audacity...

It's time to refret my strat neck and I want to use SS frets. The trouble is I've never done a complete refret and it's complicated by the fact that it's a compound radius fingerboard. But the idea that I may never have to refret it again in my life is too alluring.

I do have extensive experience with fret dressing and I do a nice job if I do say so in all lack of humbleness. I have replaced frets on my own and friends acoustic guitars where the first position frets tend to take a bad beating before the rest of the neck even shows wear. But I do know of the difficulties with SS frets so I'm a little aprehensive.

I know I could buy a neck for this guitar cheaper than the cost of a refret but the guitar has sentimental value so it has to stay whole if you get my meaning. Anyway...

I probably don't have all the tools I'll need but I'll get some of them and I'm pretty good at working with "stone knives and bones" or crafting what I need. I'm really looking for heads up's and tips. How much to over radius, what kind of glue for SS, etc.?

Any insight for a first timer, even from naysayers, is appreciated.

Thanks

[Bruce Johnson]

I recently switched over to stainless fretwire on all of my basses. I get mine from Jescar. Overall, there's nothing to fear. It's not really much different or more difficult to work with than the classic nickel-silver fretwire. Most of the horror stories that you may have read about working with SS wire are from the early days. Some of the first SS wire on the market was pretty nasty, but the alloys that companies like Jescar are using now are no real problem to work with. I use pretty much the same files, tools, and techniques on SS wire that I use with NS wire. You'll find that the SS wire is tougher to cut with clippers and is more springy when rolling or bending it. Filing it is about like filing mild steel. Polishing the SS wire is actually somewhat easier than NS wire. The NS wire is soft enough that it will tend to get deeper scratches in it from files, which then have to be sanded and polished out. The SS wire is hard enough that the files don't tend to clog and scratch, so less actual polishing is required. Overbend, glues, hammer or press technique, etc. are all about the same.

Stainless frets aren't Kryptonite. They aren't going to last forever. They're still metal which is softer than the steel wire that the strings are made of. I'd estimate that the Jescar stainless wire will probably last 2-3 times longer than NS wire. The wire is more expensive, but for me so far, the labor to install it isn't significantly greater.

[Phostenix]

Watch this series of videos on refretting a Strat (22 in all, IIRC). Lots of good info. He also has a series on a Warmoth build, which includes more level/crown/polish.

YouTube - refretting a Fender stratocaster PART 1 (introduction)

[Chuck H]

+++ Thanks guys. So it'll go about like I thought. Over radius as little as I can eyeball to keep the ends down and the middle from not seating... One fret at a time since this is a compound radius fingerboard. I'll buy some new diamond tools just to make my life easier. I can use them for other things I do as well so it's no real expense for this project. I'll check out the vids and look around some more about glues then. One tutorial actually used super glue?!? We'll see. Not real worried about the extra hardness and more difficult tooling because I do make some knives as well. Also, I've done well over a dozen dressings and replaced some frets so I'm not totally unfamiliar with the process.

I've read that SS frets will last four to five times longer? If they are making them a little softer now that would account for the shorter lifespan of three to four times longer. But heck, as it is it takes me ten years to wear out the frets on one of my guitars. If the new ones last fourty years I'll be eighty three when they wear out!!! And my family isn't typically even that long lived

[Bruce Johnson]

Chuck;

There are dozens of different techniques for installing frets, all of which work fine. Try what you like and work out your own sequence.

A few tips from my own experience:

You shouldn't have any problem with overbending. I typically roll my wire to a radius that's 80%-90% of the fingerboard radius. It isn't critical, but you want to have extra downforce on the ends. As long as your slots are cut to the right width, usually 0.023", you shouldn't have any problems with the center popping up.

Gluing the frets isn't mandatory, but most of us pros do it for a little extra quality and security. Some don't. Many guys use superglue, mostly because it's fast. I use LMI's White Instrument Glue. I put a thin bead down the slot with a syringe before tapping the fret in. It has to dry overnight after installing the frets.

I level the tops of the frets with a large flat oilstone, with a few drops of WD-40 wiped on it. I usually use one of the Stew-Mac fine grit diamond crowning files to do the crowning. To polish up traditional nickel-silver frets, I usually use 600 and 1500 grit paper on a shaped rubber block, followed by 0000 steel wool. With the stainless frets, I've had good results with the little rubberized abrasive polishing wheels that Stew-Mac sells. They're used with a Dremel tool.

My guess as to the life of the stainless is just a guess, based on many years of experience working with metals as an engineer/machinist/luthier. I just started using stainless frets in my basses this year, so I don't have any real field history yet.

[Chuck H]

Just an exercise in thinking...

If you could get frets in something like annealed 440C and tap/shape them into a template neck and dress your ends, then carefully pull them, have them heat treated and tempered, then install them in the actual neck and do a small amount of dressing as needed. Holy cow they would last the full life of a musician with almost no sign of wear. Forget the Vickers scale. We're talking rockwell HRC or 56 to 59 (Vickers of about 650). Just thinking out loud...

[Steve Conner]

Why not go the whole hog and have them nitrided, then. Or TiN coated or whatever. Cool gold colour.

You do know that Leo made the neck detachable so you could just toss it and get a new one when the frets wore out?

[Chuck H]

Certainly, when I consider the prices I should just buy a neck before troubling to refret it. A top shelf Warmoth neck with a compound radius and stainless frets is about $220. The cost of a standard refret without stainless steel. But the guitar has sentimental value and must remain whole.

[cminor9]

Certainly, when I consider the prices I should just buy a neck before troubling to refret it. A top shelf Warmoth neck with a compound radius and stainless frets is about $220. The cost of a standard refret without stainless steel. But the guitar has sentimental value and must remain whole.

Get a new neck and keep the old one in case you start feeling sentimental!

[Chuck H]

I thought about that and just couldn't bring myself to break up the guitar that way. I'd go into detail but that kind of talk kills a room pretty fast.

[Bruce Johnson]

You should just go ahead and refret this neck yourself. It may not be perfect, but you'll have some fun, learn a new skill, and you'll add to the sentimental value of the guitar.

Fretwork isn't hard. It just takes some patience and you get better with practice. If you're nervous about trying your first refret job on the sentimental neck, then practice on a scrap neck first. That's how all of us got started. You'll learn more working on that first scrap neck than you will from reading 5 books and 300 forum threads.

[David Schwab]

If you're nervous about trying your first refret job on the sentimental neck, then practice on a scrap neck first. That's how all of us got started. You'll learn more working on that first scrap neck than you will from reading 5 books and 300 forum threads.

Amen to that! You can learn the various techniques by reading, which you should, but you have to practice at it to get good.

[Chuck H]

That's very practical advice. I may soon have a Squire neck I can do a test run with to familiarize myself with the SS frets. Thanks for the replies so far. What about glues? I don't figure much actually sticks to SS but the glue is probably more about hardening and filling gaps in the fret seat to cement it in place than actually sticking to the fret.

[Bruce Johnson]

What about glues? I don't figure much actually sticks to SS but the glue is probably more about hardening and filling gaps in the fret seat to cement it in place than actually sticking to the fret.

Yes, that's basically it. The glue doesn't bond especially well to the fretwire, but it fills up any gaps and makes a harder surface surrounding the little barbs on the tang of the wire. So, it does help hold the wire down over time as the fingerboard goes through vibration and temperature cycles. At the same time, the glue helps to seal up and protect the fingerboard. When you've sawn the slot, the side walls of the slot are exposed open end grain. Moisture from the air, sweat from your fingers, and the occasional splash of beer will wick under the fret and seep into that end grain in the walls of the slots. That can make the wood swell up, which can push frets up and cause cracking. So the other purpose of the glue is to seal up that end grain in the side walls of the slot, to keep moisture out. That's why I prefer to use the LMI Instrument Makers' Glue, which is thicker than superglue. I lay a fine bead of the glue (just barely the width of the slot) down the entire length of the slot, and let it sink in for a minute or two. When I tap in the fret, the glue is hydraulically forced into the end grain of the walls. The excess squirts out the ends, and sometimes a little gets out onto the fingerboard surface. With practice, you figure out how much glue to put in there to minimize the excess.

Tip: You always need some kind of protective coating on the surface of the fingerboard, and you need to put that on before installing the frets. On most fingerboards, I use Stew-Mac's Fingerboard Oil, but some instruments call for some other clear finish. If you're refretting an old neck, and aren't sure what the finish is, you can play it safe by wiping a very light coat of wax on the fingerboard. But, don't get the wax down into the slots! The point is to get the wood on the surface and around the sides sealed up. Then, when you tap in the frets and some blops of glue ooze out onto the fingerboard, leave them alone and let them dry as they are. Resist the urge to immediately wipe them. That'll make them worse. Once the glue blops are dry, you can take a small dull chisel or a piece of plastic and gently chip them off, with no harm to the surface underneath. Don't dig under them, just push them sideways and they'll pop off.

That trick works with the LMI glue and other white and yellow woodworking glues, but doesn't work with superglues. As I said above, I don't use superglue on frets. The guys I know who do tap the frets in dry, then apply the superglue on either end and allow it to wick in.

And remember, gluing the frets in is optional. You don't have to do it. Try putting the frets in dry first in your practice neck.

[guitarmike2107]

hey I can send you my squire neck to refrett as practice.. it needs new frets badly