Do I really Need On:Off:On Mini-switch for this purpose?

[RobRed]

In rewiring my HSS guitar, I have decided to use the space normally alloted for the 5-way switch to situate several ultra-mini switches. Selection/wiring of the 2 coils of my humbucker will be controlled by a 6-position, 4-pole switch in the typical volume pot position. I will turn the bridge pickup coils as selected on or off by use of a SPDT switch. The neck and middle pickups I plan on selecting using two DPDT switches that should allow individual pickup selection or allow choosing to run the two in parallel or in series.

My question relates to those last 2 switches mentioned. When I've run across this suggestion on line, it is typically suggested that you need to use on/off/on switches for the purpose. I am confused because when I map out the circuits involving the switches, it appears you get the same options with just on/on switches--you can set both to series, both to parallel, or either one to series and the other to parallel. If they are not both set to parallel, it appears to me that the one that is will be on and the one that is not (i.e., the one that is set to series) will be off. That being the case, I don't understand why you'd need the switches with the extra "off" position. It would not hurt, but it seems redundant and would make the physical act of switching more complicated than it needs to be.

I've put the 4 images of my mapping out the switching possibilities up as attachments--sorry, I went with mixed, part pictorial, part schematic diagrams. Am I missing something? Is there truly need for the extra "off" setting on the switches?

Thanks in advance. Rob R

[big_teee]

In rewiring my HSS guitar, I have decided to use the space normally alloted for the 5-way switch to situate several ultra-mini switches. Selection/wiring of the 2 coils of my humbucker will be controlled by a 6-position, 4-pole switch in the typical volume pot position. I will turn the bridge pickup coils as selected on or off by use of a SPDT switch. The neck and middle pickups I plan on selecting using two DPDT switches that should allow individual pickup selection or allow choosing to run the two in parallel or in series.

My question relates to those last 2 switches mentioned. When I've run across this suggestion on line, it is typically suggested that you need to use on/off/on switches for the purpose. I am confused because when I map out the circuits involving the switches, it appears you get the same options with just on/on switches--you can set both to series, both to parallel, or either one to series and the other to parallel. If they are not both set to parallel, it appears to me that the one that is will be on and the one that is not (i.e., the one that is set to series) will be off. That being the case, I don't understand why you'd need the switches with the extra "off" position. It would not hurt, but it seems redundant and would make the physical act of switching more complicated than it needs to be.

I've put the 4 images of my mapping out the switching possibilities up as attachments--sorry, I went with mixed, part pictorial, part schematic diagrams. Am I missing something? Is there truly need for the extra "off" setting on the switches?

Thanks in advance. Rob R

Your getting down to the point where you need to start trial and error tests.
Like when I make a change to a pickup, the only way to find out is to mount that Baby, and play it!
I think the reason for the on off on is so you don't have the unused wire hanging, tied to the hot circuit.
Could produce Harmonics, and Noise.
I suggest you buy a couple of Pickguards and experiment.
When I work on a new pickup design I always work on at least 2.
One in the guitar and one to modify.
I do this, this one sounds ok, but let me try this, on the other one and then I swap them.
So on and so forth until I have no more ideas or improvements.
I would do that with pickguards I would load 2 or 3 pickguards, and keep experimenting and changing until you get it to suit!
Good Luck,
You never did tell us what you use to make the fancy Diagrams with?
Terry

[Steve Conner]

An on/off/on is a 3 position switch. When the toggle is in the middle position, all of the contacts are open. Sometimes that offers a third useful option in your circuit.

For instance, you can have one on/off/on switch per pickup, and if they were humbuckers the three positions could be humbucking, pickup disabled, and single coil.

If your plan doesn't make use of the middle position then you don't need on/off/on switches. They are "backwards compatible" but who knows what the middle position will do.

[RobRed]

That's great to hear. I am scratching at the bit to get wiring this thing up, so I got impatient yesterday, decided from looking at my diagrams repeatedly that I had to be right, and I ordered the switches. It left me a bit nervous, but you've taken that away with this response. You know I may have missed the boat in terms of catching on to the recommendation for use of on/off/on pickups--perhaps it was in the context of using two humbuckers rather than the single coils I am using these for, and I just lost track because I've been thinking about and investigating too many things at once.

I've said it before here--I am pathetic! I just sat down and figured it out on pen and paper, that with the 6-position, 4-pole rotary switch for bridge humbucker selection, a DPDT toggle for each of the other two single coil pickups, a third DPDT to set those two in and out of phase, and a SPST to bring the bridge in and out of the picture, there are 47 settings that I believe are truly unique (by which I mean, for instance, no two different settings are actually equivalent because of having different but equivalent phase reversal between pickups). Of course, the question arises, who needs it?, but it will give me a lot of experience/practice with wiring/soldering and I'll get to hear a lot of sounds and make comparisons, so I know what I really like for settings/tones when I rewire a more serious instrument in a more focused and limited fashion down the road. I love putting up attachments, so I've put up the list of settings, if you want a laugh!

Thanks, again Rob R

[RobRed]

Sometimes I can feel like an idiot. I was right--I can turn either pickup off using the On-On DPDT switches, but it finally hit me in the head last night, that with them wired for switching from parallel to series as planned, I wouldn't be able to turn both off and just use the bridge pickup! That's why you need the on-off-on switch (on at least one of the two) for this purpose.

Anyway, as if I didn't have enough choices already planned in the wiring, it occurred to me that if I used a DPDT on-off-on for turning the bridge pickup on and off, instead of the SPST I planned, I could use one end to tie it into the hot and ground from the rotary selector switch that is the primary bridge pickup selector and the other end to tie it into hot and ground leads of the north coil of the humbucker, as the rotary switch only allowed selecting one of the two coils (and I selected the south) for single coil settings. The north coil, selected in this way, will only be usable in parallel with the other pickups and in phase (the way things are wired otherwise, I can put the neck pickup out of phase with it but not the middle). It will add a few more options to my already ridiculous collection of settings. Fortunately I am doing this largely as a learning experience, on several different levels, because to find any particular setting when I go to use it will probably take a half an hour ! Anyway, the way I play (i.e., not in a public setting), I can take as long as I want trying different settings and seeing (or more so hearing!) what's up.

Rob R

[big_teee]

Sometimes I can feel like an idiot. I was right--I can turn either pickup off using the On-On DPDT switches, but it finally hit me in the head last night, that with them wired for switching from parallel to series as planned, I wouldn't be able to turn both off and just use the bridge pickup! That's why you need the on-off-on switch (on at least one of the two) for this purpose.

Anyway, as if I didn't have enough choices already planned in the wiring, it occurred to me that if I used a DPDT on-off-on for turning the bridge pickup on and off, instead of the SPST I planned, I could use one end to tie it into the hot and ground from the rotary selector switch that is the primary bridge pickup selector and the other end to tie it into hot and ground leads of the north coil of the humbucker, as the rotary switch only allowed selecting one of the two coils (and I selected the south) for single coil settings. The north coil, selected in this way, will only be usable in parallel with the other pickups and in phase (the way things are wired otherwise, I can put the neck pickup out of phase with it but not the middle). It will add a few more options to my already ridiculous collection of settings. Fortunately I am doing this largely as a learning experience, on several different levels, because to find any particular setting when I go to use it will probably take a half an hour ! Anyway, the way I play (i.e., not in a public setting), I can take as long as I want trying different settings and seeing (or more so hearing!) what's up.

Rob R

Have you seen these?
Superstrat Wiring Kits
"BHM STYLE" Series-Phase 6-switch wiring kits
Terry

[RobRed]

No. Those look cool. The problem is, I don't have a Strat, and the Ibanez I have does not have a pick guard. Instead, there are just cavities routed on the front for the pickups and a cavity routed in the back for the controls. The knobs and switches pass through holes in the wooden face of the guitar, so I can't do a mod that involves switching out a pick guard. In fact, I just came to realize I want to move things around a little, and I am putting toggle switches where the 5-way switch ordinarily goes, so I am going to make an aluminum plate to cover up the area to hide the old holes and give me a place to attach the new electronics. I just emailed a local company to find out whether I can get that anodized once it's done. I think I will also benefit from drilling and chiseling out the cavity some to give me more area to work with, too. I should have this guitar finished in a month or two at the rate I'm going! I think at some point I've got to get myself a Strat to play around with.

Rob R

[big_teee]

No. Those look cool. The problem is, I don't have a Strat, and the Ibanez I have does not have a pick guard. Instead, there are just cavities routed on the front for the pickups and a cavity routed in the back for the controls. The knobs and switches pass through holes in the wooden face of the guitar, so I can't do a mod that involves switching out a pick guard. In fact, I just came to realize I want to move things around a little, and I am putting toggle switches where the 5-way switch ordinarily goes, so I am going to make an aluminum plate to cover up the area to hide the old holes and give me a place to attach the new electronics. I just emailed a local company to find out whether I can get that anodized once it's done. I think I will also benefit from drilling and chiseling out the cavity some to give me more area to work with, too. I should have this guitar finished in a month or two at the rate I'm going! I think at some point I've got to get myself a Strat to play around with.

Rob R

Perhaps your starting on the wrong guitar.
Try one of these.
I like It Kiss (Keep it Simple Stupid). J/K
SX Hawk RN 3TS at RondoMusic.com
NEW CREAM CUSTOM ELECTRIC GUITAR - Locking Trem + STARS | - Electric Guitars
Later,
T

[RobRed]

Well, I have this guitar already, and I took it apart just for this project. Then I made the mistake of letting myself go crazy changing my mind with one new idea after another of how to rewire it. The problem is, I've got to get this guitar back together because it's the one I have my MIDI pickup on, and I want to get it back into use.

I have no experience with any of those guitars you suggested, but at that price, can they be play-worthy (I don't mean to suggest they're not, but...)? I picked this Ibanez up well-used at a flea-market for $80, but it started out as a $300 or so guitar, and I've enjoyed playing it right along, I just wanted to get a nicer sound out of it. I had previously put on active pickups in place of the originals, and I wasn't crazy with the sound of the active pickups, so this all started just because I wanted to switch out the pickups again. It's just I've done enough straightforward pickup replacements that I decided I wanted to get more involved this time. I didn't know how involved I was going to let myself get, but it's actually been fun!

Anyway, after my last message in which I informed you that I don't have a pick guard, that got me thinking--why not just use pick guard material to make this new cover plate? It will be a lot easier to work than aluminum plate, it will be less expensive, and I won't have to worry about getting it anodized. That will also allow me to cut the front face of the guitar right out where it overlies the control cavity, and I can then more easily enlarge the cavity to make everything fit more easily, by cutting a new profile through the full thickness of the guitar body, rather than the more difficult work of drilling/chiseling it out cautiously to a uniform depth. Getting rid of the wood on the face overlying the cavity will also make the cavity about 1/4" deeper, so that will give me yet more space to work in, as well.

Now, believe it or not, that's got me really excited. I've got the wiring all planned out, once and for all, and now I have a good plan for increasing space in the control cavity to make all the crazy wiring and components (2 rotary switches, 5 sub-mini toggle switches, and a stacked, concentric pot) fit. The body is magenta acrylic, and all the hardware is black, so I figure if I get plain black pick guard material from Stew-Mac it will look great, too.

I am retired and I like to obsess over things until I get them figured out, so although I understand the KISS mentality, I'd just as soon put in the extra time here, get a lot of understanding and experience in one fell swoop, and end up with a guitar that has more tone options than anyone would ever need in their lifetime. That will give me an opportunity to hear guitar sounds that I might not otherwise hear and know what pickup combinations and wiring produce them. Then once I know what kinds of sounds fit my playing and what kinds I could do without, I'll be in a better position to be more choosy in wiring future mods. And I'm not playing out live, so I have all the time in the world to be flipping switches and turning knobs .

I really am interested in your view of those inexpensive guitars. Do the necks tend to keep straight? Are the frets set correctly? Is the action appropriate or reasonably adjustable? Are the bridges of a reasonable quality? Do they feel good to play? I imagine if the answer to all those questions was yes, they'd be a great inexpensive place to start with new pickups and a rewiring mod to end up with a nice guitar on the cheap.

Rob R

[big_teee]

Well, I have this guitar already, and I took it apart just for this project. Then I made the mistake of letting myself go crazy changing my mind with one new idea after another of how to rewire it. The problem is, I've got to get this guitar back together because it's the one I have my MIDI pickup on, and I want to get it back into use.

I have no experience with any of those guitars you suggested, but at that price, can they be play-worthy (I don't mean to suggest they're not, but...)? I picked this Ibanez up well-used at a flea-market for $80, but it started out as a $300 or so guitar, and I've enjoyed playing it right along, I just wanted to get a nicer sound out of it. I had previously put on active pickups in place of the originals, and I wasn't crazy with the sound of the active pickups, so this all started just because I wanted to switch out the pickups again. It's just I've done enough straightforward pickup replacements that I decided I wanted to get more involved this time. I didn't know how involved I was going to let myself get, but it's actually been fun!

Anyway, after my last message in which I informed you that I don't have a pick guard, that got me thinking--why not just use pick guard material to make this new cover plate? It will be a lot easier to work than aluminum plate, it will be less expensive, and I won't have to worry about getting it anodized. That will also allow me to cut the front face of the guitar right out where it overlies the control cavity, and I can then more easily enlarge the cavity to make everything fit more easily, by cutting a new profile through the full thickness of the guitar body, rather than the more difficult work of drilling/chiseling it out cautiously to a uniform depth. Getting rid of the wood on the face overlying the cavity will also make the cavity about 1/4" deeper, so that will give me yet more space to work in, as well.

Now, believe it or not, that's got me really excited. I've got the wiring all planned out, once and for all, and now I have a good plan for increasing space in the control cavity to make all the crazy wiring and components (2 rotary switches, 5 sub-mini toggle switches, and a stacked, concentric pot) fit. The body is magenta acrylic, and all the hardware is black, so I figure if I get plain black pick guard material from Stew-Mac it will look great, too.

I am retired and I like to obsess over things until I get them figured out, so although I understand the KISS mentality, I'd just as soon put in the extra time here, get a lot of understanding and experience in one fell swoop, and end up with a guitar that has more tone options than anyone would ever need in their lifetime. That will give me an opportunity to hear guitar sounds that I might not otherwise hear and know what pickup combinations and wiring produce them. Then once I know what kinds of sounds fit my playing and what kinds I could do without, I'll be in a better position to be more choosy in wiring future mods. And I'm not playing out live, so I have all the time in the world to be flipping switches and turning knobs .

I really am interested in your view of those inexpensive guitars. Do the necks tend to keep straight? Are the frets set correctly? Is the action appropriate or reasonably adjustable? Are the bridges of a reasonable quality? Do they feel good to play? I imagine if the answer to all those questions was yes, they'd be a great inexpensive place to start with new pickups and a rewiring mod to end up with a nice guitar on the cheap.

Rob R

I am a Lefty, and it's hard to find cheap lefties.
I have a whole room full of the Rondo Left hand guitars.
Electric Guitars, Left Handed
I have about 5 guitars on this page and thinking of buy another.
The Agiles are his better line.
I Make Pickups, so I do less wiring changing and more experimenting with pickups.
This is my main Pickup testing guitar.
Douglas Spad Metallic Red Left Handed at RondoMusic.com
I've about wore it out testing pickups.
I play it quite a bit.
It's a basswood body guitar.
Your Ibby is probably a Basswood guitar.
I like the tone of Basswood.
So lots of cheap stuff out there.
I've been looking at getting this one next.
The cheaper the guitar the more to change.
Electronics, pickups, and tuners.
The Agiles have grover tuners.
Douglas TL-100 MN 2TS Left Handed at RondoMusic.com
I need a Tele to test Pickups in.
Later,
Terry

[RobRed]

Those look crazy. I've never heard of them before. I was intrigued by one of the electric 12-strings by Agile. Where are they made? I've also had in mind a semi-hollow bodied Tele (I played one at a local music shop, and it was hot), and they have some akin to those too. I might even consider a 7-string baritone ax. Are you using these just to test pickups on, or do you like the guitars and just find they need better pickups? Why are you making scads of pickups? That sounds interesting if you can buy a really cheap guitar and then beef it up with some nicer pickups you make on your own and more careful wiring. Can you make your own pickups inexpensively compared to buying brand-name pickups? How would I look into trying to get started in that?

You've left me with one other question, and I don't mean to be a wise guy in asking this, but I've always been confused about the whole lefty-righty issue with guitars. It's always struck me that what is demanded of both hands in playing a guitar is so unnatural and doesn't come easily to either hand without a whole lot of practice, that I don't see what is natural about playing a guitar one way or the other until you learn how to do it. That being the case, I don't understand why lefties need left-handed guitars. I may be mistaken, but just so you get my point, it strikes me that if all there were were "lefty" guitars, right-handed people would be able to learn to play them as easily as we learn to play "righty" guitars if we put in the effort necessary to learn the guitar in the first place. If that is correct, since we are a right-hand dominant race and there are so many more right-handed guitars available, it strikes me that lefties would do themselves a favor to start out with right-handed guitars in the first place, and then they'd be left with many more options for guitars during their guitar playing "careers". I believe I have heard that there are plenty of lefties that play so-called right-handed guitars. What is your take on this? Is there something more natural about strumming/picking/fingering with our dominant hand and fingering chords and scales with our non-dominant hand, which of course is what is typically done, or since neither is a natural activity, couldn't we teach either hand to play either role (in fact I've always found the way we play the guitar curious because it seems to me the left hand gets the harder and more precision demanding job)? Again, I'm not asking this to be a wise-guy but simply out of curiosity about your sense as a left-handed player about just how natural it is to learn to play the guitar one way or the other.

Rob R

[big_teee]

On being Left Handed.
If It looks easy try playing a Left Handed guitar.
I tried for years to play right handed. It don't work.
You have your dexterity hand and you have your support or holding hand.
I am retired and I have adapted to doing lots of things, right handed.
You sound like the rest of the world that does the take it or leave it approach to being left handed.
Rondo probably sells as many lefties as right hand axes, because Kurt had enough since to take advantage of the un-tapped market.
Why do you Write, Eat, cut, shoot, anything that requires much dexterity you use your lead hand and Eye for.
I sure as hell don't want some left handed surgeon getting a memo that he has to cut on spinal cord today using his Right hand.
There are a lot of folks that aren't true lefties. Some people are Right Handed, and Left Eyed, or right handed and Left footed.
That has its own complications.
I am a true South Paw. I am left handed Left Eyed, and left footed.
I never could do the picking with the right hand. Chording is still a holding function, that's why you use Your Support hand.
Anyway enough about that. We are what we are!
End of Rant!!!
T

[JoeM]

Whether or not left handed people play comfortably with a right handed guitar varies by individual. Master guitarist George Van Eps was left handed and he felt it put the stronger hand over the fingerboard.

[big_teee]

Whether or not left handed people play comfortably with a right handed guitar varies by individual. Master guitarist George Van Eps was left handed and he felt it put the stronger hand over the fingerboard.

That was his individual choice. Not Mine.
My uncle was left handed, and years ago His Nun teacher whacked him on the knuckles enough with a ruler that he learned to Write Right Handed.
He still ate, Threw a ball, batted, and shot a gun Left Handed. He didn't play guitar, that's probably why. There were no left hand guitars then.
IMO Until you Righties learn to play left handed, Your just guessing and speculating. I've tried it both ways, and if I had to play right handed I would just be SOL!
Terry

[JoeM]

Terry, I'm not guessing or speculating. I spent years teaching, privately at a large music store and at 3 community colleges, and was part time faculty (Jazz guitar) at the University of La Verne. Some can play right handed fine, but others it just wont work.