Gibson Guitar Plant Raided

[big_teee]

It matters BT. If points are raised that make voting people think then it matters. If Gibson being raided in such a manor is something you can lay down for then it doesn't matter to you. But where does it end? What about the guy who loses a family hierloom rosewood desk at the border crossing??? What about the guy who loses his pre war Martin acoustic??? What about the tax dollars being spent to police this sort of frivolity??? And lastly, what about the loss of basic freedoms??? If we allow this sort of thing it's the same as endorsing it. And, IMHE, with policies like this if we ignore it we allow it and. If we allow it we allow the continued degradation of our fredoms and they continue to slowly decompose. So it's all relative. "I" may not be the one to make a difference but it's important to be aware. The day may come when someone who can make difference manages to get this policy on the chopping block or at least makes a move to refine the policy into something more useful. I'd like to know how it affects me and which way to vote.

95% of most Adults know if they are going to vote right or left.
They may not know which candidate, but they usually know on which side of right or left they stand.
All the Pitting the right against left on Here won't change that.
All it usually does is make enemies, and has nothing to do with how good my amp or Guitar Sounds.
I thought this was supposed to be a Music Forum, and we could forget about all that Everyday News $h!t, when we come here.
End of Rant!
Have a Nice day which ever side your own.
I respect Everyone elses right to think however they want.
Rock On!
T

[J M Fahey]

All I can say is that clearly *there is* a politically charged atmosphere around us.
And everybody is somewhat jumpy.
Maybe/probably for good reason.
Although not posted as a political issue, the particular facts surrounding the Gibson raid gave it that character.
It should have been only an "ecological" issue, at most, besides the obvious influence on guitars we love.
But unexplainably it goes way beyond that.
How in Heaven can it be justified prosecuting stuff made with certain woods, years or decades after they were made?
Not forgetting that since they were made way back then, not a single protected tree was put in danger by them.
They were *already* made and that´s it.
Made when it was legal, may I add.
Oh well.

[Chuck H]

IMHO this subject is a guitar related issue that has to do with politics. At least that merits crossover issue status. Not sure how that wouldn't be relevant here.?. This IS a guitar forum, and the government is moving in and taking our guitars because of the materials they're constructed with. Awareness of the materials is certainly a technical point. Trying to keep our instruments is just as important as trying to keep them working. There... It's relevant now.

[hasserl]

I'm reminded of a saying that goes something like "just because you are interested in politics doesn't mean politics is not interested in you". We all have much at stake here. We can only ignore things so long, eventually they come around to effect us where we live.

[David Schwab]

And that is why Obama refuses to let anything get better, and is trying desperately to make things worse.

Well for one thing the Senate wont let him do anything. Look where the health care thing went. He tries, and they veto. It's just a big game.
Secondly the economy was in the toilet before he got into office. That was the last clown's doing, and I can guarantee that was intentional.
But basically Obama's just not doing anything.

The whole "spending" thing was due to Bush's wars. Just the Iraq war has cost $800 billion so far. The other tissue which no one but Ron Paul talks about is the Federal Reserve Bank. They print us up some phony money, and then lend it to us at interest. That's where the national debt comes from. We don't need to have the Fed print money. We have enough gold for our own money. But that doesn't make the bankers rich. Incidentally the last two presidents that issued currency that didn't come from a central bank were Lincoln and Kennedy. Look where it got them.

But really, stop watching the news. It's all brain washing. Especially FOX and CNN. Fox makes up stories. They have everyone worried about compact florescent bulbs, saying nonsense like they emit mercury, when just about every public and private office building has nothing but florescent lighting. No one has gotten mercury poisoning since they have been using them since the 40s. Plus they don't tell you that by getting rid of incandescent bulbs that the coal burning power plants will produce far less mercury than they do now, since incandescent bulbs produce more heat than light.

So why do the republicans make a big deal about this? To keep people distracted.

[Chuck H]

So why do the republicans make a big deal about this? To keep people distracted.

While they take over the world with mind control.

[hasserl]

Well for one thing the Senate wont let him do anything. Look where the health care thing went. He tries, and they veto.

BRAVO!!!! The healthcare take over was crap and hopefully will be overturned in the Supreme Court.

The whole "spending" thing was due to Bush's wars. Just the Iraq war has cost $800 billion so far.

Yeah, and let's just ignore the $800B Obama spent on the "stimulus".

[J M Fahey]

Well, so Bush spent $800B to please the oilers?
Then Obama spent another $800B to "save" the bankers?
No difference to me.
Both are "Big Corporations" in my book.
And the $1600B came out of *your* (American Citizens) pockets, that´s the unifying factor.
Oh well.

[David Schwab]

BRAVO!!!! The healthcare take over was crap and hopefully will be overturned in the Supreme Court.

Why was it crap? Do you have health care? I sure don't. Everyone should have health care without making insurance companies richer. You realize you don't get most of that money back, right? What's the point?

Yeah, and let's just ignore the $800B Obama spent on the "stimulus".

That was stupid also. Those banks need to just go out of business, but then those banks are calling thew shots.

But if it wasn't for Bush, we wouldn't have needed a stimulus package.

[David Schwab]

While they take over the world with mind control.

Not with mind control.

[David Schwab]

Anyway...not that Bam-Bam didn't have help from Bush, who should have known better than to act like a Progressive far-left Democrat by not editing the Patriot Act, and, also, spending with abandon. It's just too bad that bad intelligence from the Clinton administration (he was too busy under his desk to pay attention to what was on it...(but Newt is a cad..right?)) allowed for the 9-11 attacks mere months after Bush took office, and apparently bad intel that Bush inherited led to Iraq. Too bad the Dems believed all that, and voted for that, also. If they hadn't, Bush would have to take all the blame...not that the Dems aren't trying to LAY all the blame on Bush...despite their voting record on the subject. (White House instructions to mainstream media official propaganda outlets..."Ssshhhh...do NOT mention that! ALWAYS blame the Republicans, even when it's easily proven false. Most people who watch us won't bother to check facts. That's our advantage!

You don't actually believe any of that, do you? It's very naïve. Buch knew exactly what he was doing. 9/11 was allowed to happen (if it wasn't orchestrated) so that the patriot act could go into affect. Do you realize some of the stuff that was piggy backed into that?

The First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well it just did. If you are part of a peaceful protest, you can be tagged as a terrorist and locked up without any charges filed against you. They can tap anyone's phones for no reason at all. Read all your email. And raid your home. There does not have to be the suspicion of criminal activity.

I'm not going to get into the whole 9/11 thing, and why it's very fishy, but both my wife and myself where there when it happened. She was right around the corner. I was several blocks away. Another friend of mine worked in Tower 1. Luckily she was outside getting coffee. They will both tell you that there was a series of explosions that started before the towers fell. And Building 7? that makes no sense whatsoever. The story told to use is a lie.

Is it a coincidence that the 9/11 attacks happened right after Bush took office? Is it a a coincidence that the Bush family is close to the Bin Laden family?

Look at this training manual cover from 2000:



Coincidence?

Concerning Iraq; they knew there were no WMD there. We have satellites that can read license plates. But they also knew there was oil there. The Bush family are in the oil business. Coincidence?

Stop being brain washed by this whole "left vs. right" thing. Thats just divide and conquer. Keep everyone fighting, ad they can do what ever they wish.

Also I want to remind you that this country is a Democratic Republic. The original republicans are now the democrats. The current so called republicans are Hamiltonians. They don't want anything for the people, just for the rich.

And Newt is an ignorant gas bag. People like him because he's as dumb as they are. These are the same people who liked GW Bush. Bush ran every business he ever owned into the ground. That's a matter of public record. Why would they think he could do any better with the country? Well he ran that into the ground too. But why should he care, he doesn't have to worry about paying his rent.

The only one on the republican ticket that has any sense is Ron Paul, and he's a Libertarian. But he's speaking the truth, so he'll never get elected. Oh yeah, then we have that dumb Electoral College system.

Now getting back to the subject. The reason we have situations like what happened at Gibson is based on greed. People want a free market and capitalism in this country, but meanwhile things have been allowed to get so expensive here that companies like Gibson have to do things like move to Tenn where they don't pay their help as much as they did in Kalamazoo, and have a lot of stuff made in China. Meanwhile greed leads to whole groves of mahogany trees being cut down (as well as US and global deforestation for profit). So since humans don't know how to manage things, like forest, laws had to be put into act to stop us from ruining the planet any more than we have already. The problem is, we over produce. We make things that no one needs or wants, instead of waiting for a need. Why? To make money.

So then this leads companies like Gibson to smuggle wood into the country from Madagascar and other places. But two wrongs don't make a right. Pretty soon all the jobs here will be out sourced, and all our raw materials will be depleted.

I for one am all for the raids.

[hasserl]

Why was it crap? Do you have health care? I sure don't. Everyone should have health care without making insurance companies richer. You realize you don't get most of that money back, right? What's the point?

What do you mean you don't have health care? There are no doctors or hospitals near you? Or none of them will treat you? You do realize that legally they are required to treat you whether you can pay for it or not. OR do you mean you have no health insurance? That's a different story. There's health care and there's health insurance, which is it that you don't have?

Why it's crap would take more room than a reply on an internet forum and more time that I don't have right now. But very simply the US Gov is not tasked with providing health care, I've looked at the Constitution and I don't see it in there anywhere. Besides that they couldn't do it well anyway, so by taking it over by force they will destroy what we have in the process and give us something less. In the guise of providing health care for ~30M people in the states without insurance (half of whom are illegal aliens anyway,who shouldn't be here and are not supposed to be included in the plan; and of the rest many are young people under the age of 30 that don't use much health care anyway and don't want to pay for insurance they don't want or need, and much of the rest are people that have decided health insurance is too expensive for them and they'd rather do without [would I be wrong to assume that includes you?]) they will ruin the health care for the majority that has insurance and is happy with things the way they are. By forcing everyone to buy insurance they will force young people to pay for the health care of older people, much like they force the young to subsidize the leisure of retired folks with Social Security. The plan also broadens the gov't reach into privacy of the people, and creates several huge new beuracracies (along with expansion of the Internal Revenue Service with ~12,000 additional agents) that will no doubt be staffed with well paid union workers that will put even more demand on an already over taxed population and an already huge unfunded pension liabilities. The whole system is complex and bloated, you've seen the flow chart? There are market oriented means to reduce the cost of health care and insurance that don't involve a gov't take over of private industry or an unconstitutional mandate that everyone purchase insurance.

That was stupid also. Those banks need to just go out of business, but then those banks are calling thew shots.

But if it wasn't for Bush, we wouldn't have needed a stimulus package.

That's just stupid, there are many reasons for the downturn of the economy, blaming it all on Bush is lazy and inaccurate. You're smarter than that, stop turning your brain off when addressing politics.

[hasserl]

You don't actually believe any of that, do you? It's very naïve. Buch knew exactly what he was doing. 9/11 was allowed to happen (if it wasn't orchestrated) so that the patriot act could go into affect. Do you realize some of the stuff that was piggy backed into that?

cuckoo cuckoo, call the men in the funny white coats, we got a live one here.

...
Now getting back to the subject. The reason we have situations like what happened at Gibson is based on greed. People want a free market and capitalism in this country, but meanwhile things have been allowed to get so expensive here that companies like Gibson have to do things like move to Tenn where they don't pay their help as much as they did in Kalamazoo, and have a lot of stuff made in China. Meanwhile greed leads to whole groves of mahogany trees being cut down (as well as US and global deforestation for profit). So since humans don't know how to manage things, like forest, laws had to be put into act to stop us from ruining the planet any more than we have already. The problem is, we over produce. We make things that no one needs or wants, instead of waiting for a need. Why? To make money.

So then this leads companies like Gibson to smuggle wood into the country from Madagascar and other places. But two wrongs don't make a right. Pretty soon all the jobs here will be out sourced, and all our raw materials will be depleted.

I for one am all for the raids.

David, the stated problem with what Gibson did was to import "unfinished products", in other words, they brought in rough materials to be used in the fabrication of instruments, the fabricating being done here in the US. That means US workers doing jobs here, not "made in China". Again, you completely turn off all objective thinking when the topic turns to politics and you make irrational rambling posts that make you seem looney as a bat. All the intelligent rational thought you put into posts about guitars and pickups goes right out the window and your brain goes into shut down the moment the topic goes political. I really wished we could see the same rational person as we do in the guitar/pickup posts.

[David Schwab]

What do you mean you don't have health care? There are no doctors or hospitals near you? Or none of them will treat you? You do realize that legally they are required to treat you whether you can pay for it or not. OR do you mean you have no health insurance? That's a different story. There's health care and there's health insurance, which is it that you don't have?

Are you really stupid, or are you being difficult? I have no health insurance because I'm self employed. Sure, I can go to a doctor and pay out of pocket. But I often can't afford that. Every other developed country in the world has free medical aid to their citizens. Even Cuba. Why not the US?

Why it's crap would take more room than a reply on an internet forum and more time that I don't have right now.

Yes crap, crap, crap. Learn to speak succinctly and it wont take as many words. People are making this more difficult because they are opposed to it.

But very simply the US Gov is not tasked with providing health care, I've looked at the Constitution and I don't see it in there anywhere.

Really, you read the thing huh? But it's OK that we have public schools, police, fire departments and the post office? Those are all socialized services. If everyone had to send their kids to a private school you would hear a whole lot about that.

Besides that they couldn't do it well anyway, so by taking it over by force they will destroy what we have in the process and give us something less.

Why couldn't they do it. Explain. They do it in other countries. When my wife lived in Spain and Italy she was able to walk into a pharmacy and get an asthma inhaler for free or for a couple of bucks. Here they cost about $120. Why? It's about 50 cents worth of ingredients. The pharmaceutical company made back whatever R&D was involved years ago. Why charge so much for so little? To make lots of money. I can see maybe for something like Viagra, but for something to keep you alive?

And now my wife's health insurance is making her buy her meds by mail.

In the UK and Canada you also get free medical care. In the UK they even give you cab fare. We are supposed to be this rich country right?

So how do they make it work, and we don't? Because there's big money to be made in health insurance and pharma.

Also as far as not being able to do it, that's nonsense (or crap as you say) because in some extent they already do. Since I have no health insurance, my 7 year old daughter gets her health insurance though a federal and state funded health insurance program. So most of the time she doesn't pay anything for doctor visits or prescriptions. Nothing. Maybe $1 for some prescriptions. Now my wife has health insurance through her job, but to add her daughter, or me, would remove several hundred dollars from her pay each week.

In the guise of providing health care for ~30M people in the states without insurance (half of whom are illegal aliens anyway, who shouldn't be here and are not supposed to be included in the plan;

Then they wouldn't be included in the plan....

and of the rest many are young people under the age of 30 that don't use much health care anyway and don't want to pay for insurance they don't want or need,

You have anything to back that up? It's also nonsense. Normally I work in the graphics field, but things have been slow. So a couple of years ago I took a job at Staples in the print dept. Just about every person there under 30 works there for one reason: health insurance. Most of them either had another job with no benefits (like bar tending), and/or were students.

My son, who's in collage, got health insurance thought he school, but it was very expensive for a year.

and much of the rest are people that have decided health insurance is too expensive for them and they'd rather do without [would I be wrong to assume that includes you?])

I didn't decide anything. I just don't have $1,400 a month for insurance. That's how much is is you know. That's what I pay for rent. Do you not see a problem with that? How much is your car insurance? Not $1,400 a month. Plain and simple there needs to be some reform in this area.

they will ruin the health care for the majority that has insurance and is happy with things the way they are.

Explain how that would ruin anything. How would anything change? My daughter still sees the same doctor she had since she was born. But my wife and I had to change doctors four or five times, because our health insurance would change, and then our preferred doctor was out of the network.

In other countries you go to who ever you want. There is no network. Have you ever been out of the US?

By forcing everyone to buy insurance they will force young people to pay for the health care of older people, much like they force the young to subsidize the leisure of retired folks with Social Security.

No one is forcing anyone to buy insurance? Where did you get that idea? However, to show where you are not thinking clearly, if you have a job in the US, most employers provide you with health insurance. So you ARE being forced into buying insurance, unless you don't want to have any, and in that case wait until something happens and you end up in the hospital.

The idea is to provide people with health care without having to buy insurance. As I've repeated several times, it's done al over the world and it works just fine. You can even walk into a hospital in a country where you do not live and they will treat you. In Canada even. How is it not working?

The plan also broadens the gov't reach into privacy of the people

Please. You mean more so than the Patriot Act? What are you hiding? Are you trafficking humans or drugs or laundering money? Do you have illegal firearms? Right now your email and phone is being randomly screened.

Also have you noticed the trend of having to use your SS number for identification for non federal or state business? That's not even supposed to be legal, but it's being done.

and creates several huge new beuracracies (along with expansion of the Internal Revenue Service with ~12,000 additional agents)

What's the IRS have to do with healthcare? Hello? It's Medicaid! We already have that. That's who covers my daughter's insurance and though some other companies that are part of the system. It's already in place.

And hey, look, it would generate jobs. How about that!

that will no doubt be staffed with well paid union workers that will put even more demand on an already over taxed population and an already huge unfunded pension liabilities.

We agree on this point. But people who work for insurance companies are not union. We can get some non profit org like FedCap to handle it.

The whole system is complex and bloated, you've seen the flow chart? There are market oriented means to reduce the cost of health care and insurance that don't involve a gov't take over of private industry or an unconstitutional mandate that everyone purchase insurance.

The current system probably needs to be scrapped. As I said, it works in the rest of the world. It would be nice to have our high taxes go to something other than defense. And theres's too many high salaries for people in government.

Our big fat dummy of a governor of NJ decided the way to fix the budget is cut teachers in schools, remove art and music classes, and close libraries on weekends. That will make sure we raise some smart well adjust kids, right? Meanwhile he's taking the state helicopter to fly to his son's little league game. That's the kind of stuff we can cut first. He's a republican too. Unfortunately that's how they behave.

That's just stupid, there are many reasons for the downturn of the economy, blaming it all on Bush is lazy and inaccurate. You're smarter than that, stop turning your brain off when addressing politics.

My brain is working fine. How about yours? You like to use names like "Bam Bam". Why because Obama is black? Be honest, that's why most people don't like him. Now I voted for him, and I think he turned out to be a disappointment. But he hasn't done any harm yet, unlike Bush. Oh and then Clinton had an affair... wow, shocking. But he's a smarter man than Bush is. But see, that doesn't matter. Just use some ad hominem attacks on people because they are left or right, and forget what the job they are supposed to be doing is.

[David Schwab]

cuckoo cuckoo, call the men in the funny white coats, we got a live one here.

Hey, you want to put your intellect up against mine buddy? Be my guest. Do some research. Don't believe what people tell you.

David, the stated problem with what Gibson did was to import "unfinished products", in other words, they brought in rough materials to be used in the fabrication of instruments, the fabricating being done here in the US. That means US workers doing jobs here, not "made in China". Again, you completely turn off all objective thinking when the topic turns to politics and you make irrational rambling posts that make you seem looney as a bat. All the intelligent rational thought you put into posts about guitars and pickups goes right out the window and your brain goes into shut down the moment the topic goes political. I really wished we could see the same rational person as we do in the guitar/pickup posts.

Gibson smuggled illegally harvested wood from Madagascar. Why didn't the feds go after Fender, or Rickenbacker, PRS, or Martin? They all use Indian rosewood. Rickenbacker uses African rosewood (Buginga).

Chris Martin even talked about this publicly. They saw what was going on in Madagascar and stayed away from it.

Regarding Gibson and US jobs. Where are Epiphone guitars made? Qingdao, China. They also do a better job than on the US made Gibsons. Epiphones used to be made in the same factory as Gibsons. What's the ratio of Gibsons to Epiphones sold? I'm sure they sell more Epis since people can afford them. So honestly, they can't find people to employ in the US to make Epis? Most of their cost cutting is with lousy hardware.

Or do as Fender does. have the parts made in Mexico and then assembled here. And at least that's part of NAFTA. We are relying on China too much.

But Gibson wants to churn out guitars quickly on CNC mills, and then do an absolutely shoddy job on the hand work, or lack thereof. I posted that photo of the Les Paul Custom fingerboard with chatter marks. And how much does Gibson want for that guitar? They also don't pay their employees all that much. Talk to a few people who have ever worked for Gibson to hear what a lousy company it is.

And my brain never shuts down. The difference is I'm actually thinking, and you are just accepting what pundits say. People are too complacent to just leave things the way they are, and don't rock the boat. We didn't break away from England by being complacent.