Gibson - better bridge?

[pdf64]

I'm sick of the stock Gibson (made by Schaller) die cast ABR1 and Nashville Tune O Matic bridges bending down in the middle over time, losing the match to the neck profile.
Has anyone experience of better (eg machined) types, such as Callaham or ABM?

[David Schwab]

The bridge shouldn't bend down. There are 50 year old guitars with intact ToM bridges.

The reason that happens is because people screw the stop tailpiece al the way down thinking this will give them more sustain, which is wont. The tailpiece is not supposed to be screwed all the way down, which is why its adjustable. I see this all the time when doing repairs, and have to point out to the owners not to do that. They all say they lowered it because they thought it would improve the tone. It wont. Gibson sets them the way they are suppose to be.

So if you have the tailpiece all the way down, raise it back up. You don't want that much of a break angle over the saddles that the strings hot the back of the bridge.

This is what Gibson says about adjusting the stop tailpiece:

There is usually no need to adjust the stopbar unless the strings are moving out of the saddles, in which case the stopbar should be lowered.

So just lower it enough to keep the strings inthe saddles, and not all the way down, and your bridge wont collapse.

[jrfrond]

You hear more STORIES about TOM's sagging than seeing the actual thing.

The best ABR-1 TOM's out there are Schaller, Gotoh and Tone Pros. However, as Dave pointed out, you need to know how to adjust the stop tailpiece as well. The starting point is when both E's clear the rear edge of the bridge and don't sit on it. Then crank it up a full turn after that, which is about right.

If you own a guitar with a TOM and do your own setups, take the time to order the Tune-O-Medic Bridge Jack andStop Tailpiece Wrench from Stew-Mac. The first one help lift the bridge when you have recalcitrant bridge studs, and the second one adjusts stop bar studs without chewing them up. A bit pricey for the DIY'ers ($71 combined), but well worth it for people like myself who do it regularly. In the old days, we all made our own special tools (still have some), but as Stew-Mac comes out with more convenient goodies, I arm myself with them. The right tool for the job is important.

Incidentally, next time you change your strings, lubricate the tops of the bridge studs and adjusters, as well as any studs that sit in a metal bushings. That will help later on.

[David Schwab]

You hear more STORIES about TOM's sagging than seeing the actual thing.

I've seen ONE in the past 35 years. It was on an Epiphone Genesis. Looked like a standard ABR bridge, but who knows. I replaced it with a Gotoh.

[Plucky]

Gibson sets them the way they are suppose to be.

Not true. Every single factory-fresh Gibson I have seen in at least the last decade has had the tailpiece all the way down.

[Plucky]

I'm sick of the stock Gibson (made by Schaller) die cast ABR1 and Nashville Tune O Matic bridges bending down in the middle over time, losing the match to the neck profile.

Losing the match? They are already too flat for the fingerboard radius when they are new...

[David Schwab]

Not true. Every single factory-fresh Gibson I have seen in at least the last decade has had the tailpiece all the way down.

Well that goes to show where Gibson's QC has gone... down the toilet. Keep in mind that the current people who call themselves Gibson haven't a clue.

[David Schwab]

Losing the match? They are already too flat for the fingerboard radius when they are new...

How's it too flat? They are both 12".

[Plucky]

How's it too flat? They are both supposed to be 12".

FTFY

[pdf64]

The sagging Nashville TOMs are on a 76 LP Deluxe and a 95 ES135. The dip is just under 0.5mm in the centre, when running a ruler along the length. In reality it probably isn't significant, except that the middle saddle notches are super deep on the deluxe, so the strings are pretty flat.
I take the point regarding excessive downward pressure from the tailpiece, however the ES135 has a 'jazz' type tailpiece in which that is minimal.
So I was surprised it has the same sag as the LP, which is 20 years older (and I've owned since 1986).
A buddy has 97 SG that has a similar degree of bridge sag.
The common factor is the 'Made In Germany' bridge.
I've also got a 2010 LP R8 with a 'Gibson ABR1' branded bridge; no sag there, it looks a much more sturdy item. It's a fabulous guitar, I'm really pleased with it. As Plucky says, it came stock with the tailpiece screwed down tight to the body.
I've ordered an ABM machined brass bridge, so I'll see how I go on with that

[Plucky]

Well that goes to show where Gibson's QC has gone... down the toilet. Keep in mind that the current people who call themselves Gibson haven't a clue.

I agree. Especially when half of the time the nuts are slotted too low and need to be replaced right out of the box. Ironically, this seems to be more prevalent on the more expensive models. I guess the more time they put into them, the longer they have to mess them up.

Maybe sometime I'll post a photo-essay of all of the glaring defects I found while examining a Firebird X. Just for laughs...

[pdf64]

a 2010 LP R8 with a 'Gibson ABR1' branded bridge... it came stock with the tailpiece screwed down tight to the body

Just to clarify, given John's point, on the LP R8, even with the tailpiece screwed right down, the strings are still well clear of the back edge of the bridge.
The tailpiece on the 70s Deluxe has to be at least 1/4" off the body to avoid that (I've always set it up for a minimal string angle over the saddle).
I guess that the neck/body angle must be less on the R8 than on the 70s LP Deluxe, which is weird because the R8 feels smaller somehow and more 'wrapped around' you.
I was planning to just replace the saddles on the LP Deluxe Nashville bridge, but decided there was potential for tone and operational benefits from replacing the whole thing with one machined from a more 'respectable' material.
ABM 2504N BRIDGE - Thomann UK Cyberstore

[JoeM]

The common factor is the 'Made In Germany' bridge.

Nashville type right? A repairman replaced the original ABR1 bridge on my Gibson jazz guitar years ago with a Nashville "made in germany" one and it sagged after a few years. I replaced it with the original Gibson ABR1 and its fine after 25 years or so.

[Chuck H]

So, this sounds like an issue with saddle wear rather that the actual bridge sagging. I was really confused by the description. An arch is structurally pretty strong and I can't imagine the arched die cast iron bridge actually sagging, ever. Unless it were abused somehow. Like the instrument case presses on it and other stuff is pressing on the case.

I can see the saddles wearing down though. Too bad there isn't a higher grade steel replacement. They're pretty pointy and I would think brass or cast iron could indeed wear down with heavy strings and or aggressive playing.

[JoeM]

Chuck,

In my case, the issue wasnt saddle wear, but the bridge itself collapsing in the middle. I have another Gibson (1960 ES-345) with the original ABR1, and it shows no sagging at all, so it appears the particular bridges that sag are the "Made In Germany" Nashville style ones. Schaller made these?