Question about stock wiring of Strat tone controls

[Steve A.]

With the capacitor shared by both controls it looks like there would theoretically be some interaction between the neck and middle pickups when the tone controls are turned down a bit. I usually rewire the tone controls with separate caps so I haven't got around to testing this myself but here's the question: does anybody hear any interaction through the tone controls?

In wiring strats I've been following a tip I had read on the forum here: connect the lower tone control to the bridge pickup and not to the middle pickup. In the past I had been jumpering the selector switch so that the lower tone control would be wired to both the middle and the bridge pickups but I like the distinctive sound of the middle pickup not connected to a tone control. (I had never had much use for the middle pickup by itself- I thought it was kinda boring compared to the bridge and neck pickups.)

Thanks

Steve Ahola

[Mark Hammer]

The two tone pots share a common treble-bleed cap for probably no other reason than saving 20 cents in production costs. If it was the case that both tone pots were ever in use simultaneously, there wold be an interaction such that their combined parallel resistance, would bleed even more treble off through their common cap to ground (i.e., even both set to full treble, they would behave as if they were turned down halfway). Thankfully, they are introduced one at a time. No reason why you couldn't have separate tone caps for each pot, though, selected to complement the pickup/s that pot is assigned to.

[Steve A.]

The two tone pots share a common treble-bleed cap for probably no other reason than saving 20 cents in production costs. If it was the case that both tone pots were ever in use simultaneously, there wold be an interaction such that their combined parallel resistance, would bleed even more treble off through their common cap to ground (i.e., even both set to full treble, they would behave as if they were turned down halfway).

Halfway down for a 10% taper 250k audio pot would be ~25K not 125k. (125k would correspond to something like 8 or 9.) As for saving just 20 cents, with two tone caps there is twice as big of a chance that a tone cap could fail prematurely so warranty repair costs might have been factored into their decision as well. Or not.

The strat was designed with a 3 position switch so the idea of using two pickups at once probably did not enter their minds. (I'm sure that the notched positions were discovered accidentally- perhaps on a bandstand where everybody wanted to know how the guitarist got that really cool and strange sound.)

Thankfully, they are introduced one at a time. No reason why you couldn't have separate tone caps for each pot, though, selected to complement the pickup/s that pot is assigned to.

In the stock neck/middle notched position both of the tone pots would be active. I was wondering if there was some of the signal from the middle pickup bleeding into the signal when only the neck pickup was selected (and with both tone pots set somewhere in the middle.) And vice versa. The reason I asked is that I thought that the tone controls worked a bit weird on a strat I had rewired with the lower tone control connected to the bridge pickup. They seemed to work better once I split them up. I used a 0.022uF cap for the neck pickup, making it a little warmer and a 0.05uF cap on the bridge pickup.

EDIT I just realized that the plastic selector switch on this strat (a Dean with a top-notch custom fret job) is wired differently than the regular Fender switches. The hot pickup leads connect directly to the tone pots; the Fender switches use two poles- one for the signal to the volume control and the other to the tone pots so what I suspected is not possible.

Steve Ahola

P.S. I put a set of Van Zandt Fullertone pickups on this strat- these are one of the "holy grail" sets out there, the last design that the father had worked on and probably their most authentic copies of the early Fender pickups.

[David Schwab]

The Strat was not made to have more than one pickup on at a time. It originally used a three way switch. That's why they used that tone circuit. It wasn't until people starting parking the switch between the two pickups, and then later used 5-position switches that you could get those 32 and 4 settings. But after Fender started using 5 way switches, they didn't bother to rewire the tone controls.

[Steve A.]

The Strat was not made to have more than one pickup on at a time. It originally used a three way switch. That's why they used that tone circuit. It wasn't until people starting parking the switch between the two pickups, and then later used 5-position switches that you could get those 32 and 4 settings. But after Fender started using 5 way switches, they didn't bother to rewire the tone controls.

I am more surprised that Fender left the bridge pickup not connected to any tone control at all. I think sharing the tone cap does mellow out the N/M notch position a bit since with both tone controls set at 10 there is half the resistance going to the cap.

Were guitar techs filing notches in the 3 way selector switches before the after market 5 way switches became available?

[52 Bill]

Were guitar techs filing notches in the 3 way selector switches before the after market 5 way switches became available?

What I remember doing was shifting the metal ground plate so that the switch slot was smaller and the lever was rubbing against the metal edge, so it sort of would stick in between the normal stops. The 5-way switches also have longer contacts that make the mid points easier to hit than the old 3-ways.

[kilphody]

Paper matches ala Buddy Guy

[David Schwab]

I am more surprised that Fender left the bridge pickup not connected to any tone control at all. I think sharing the tone cap does mellow out the N/M notch position a bit since with both tone controls set at 10 there is half the resistance going to the cap.

I agree. I like to rewire the control so the pot for the middle pickup is for the bridge, and the other pot is for the other two pickups.

Were guitar techs filing notches in the 3 way selector switches before the after market 5 way switches became available?

I never saw that, but I knew people who would just balance the switch between. One guy I knew installed a second switch alongside the original one. Then he could combinations of two different pickups.

[the great waldo]

Hi Steve

I remember well filing out the notches on a 3 way switch with a dremel and a burr, it was really easy to slip and mess up the switch. The early 60's strats with the metal shielding plate under the scratchplate were easier, the plates usually moved a bit and you could jam the switch against it and the scratchplate in the inbetween positions. I also remember a push pull volume on/off knob on our first colour TV I thought it would make a great switch for guitar pups, I suppose I should've patented it and got rich LOL.

Cheers

Andrew

I am more surprised that Fender left the bridge pickup not connected to any tone control at all. I think sharing the tone cap does mellow out the N/M notch position a bit since with both tone controls set at 10 there is half the resistance going to the cap.

Were guitar techs filing notches in the 3 way selector switches before the after market 5 way switches became available?

[the great waldo]

What I remember doing was shifting the metal ground plate so that the switch slot was smaller and the lever was rubbing against the metal edge, so it sort of would stick in between the normal stops. The 5-way switches also have longer contacts that make the mid points easier to hit than the old 3-ways.

Hello Bill

I just spotted your post you beat me to it, I guess i'm getting old.

Cheers

Andrew

[Fluoroscope 5000]

Strats/Teles were designed before people used distortion, so the bridge pickup was sans tone knob. The point of the bridge pickup was to have a bright lead tone to cut through the mix. Why use a tone knob? The tone pots share a cap because it's less work for the electronics department. Ideally, each pickup should have it's own cap chosen for a certain resonance depending on the pickup inductance.

[David Schwab]

It's also because that bright clean tone was popular at the time, and Leo Fender had high frequency hearing loss, which got worse over time. His instruments got progressively brighter and brighter. First you have the Strat with no tone control on the bridge pickup. Then you have the Jaguar. Then the Musicman instruments, like the Sabre with the built in treble boost, and then the G&Ls with very bright pickups and a treble boosting preamp!

Interestingly, Leo rejected one of the first sets of speakers he got because they were too clean sounding, so players did have a tiny bit of grit going on.

[Steve A.]

It's also because that bright clean tone was popular at the time, and Leo Fender had high frequency hearing loss, which got worse over time.[/B]

I think that Leo wanted the strat to do everything that a tele could but better- at least in the minds of their customers- and by 1956 the tele bridge pickups were much brighter than the ones from the early 50's, right?

Remember how the lead guitarist in bands ALWAYS played the Strat with 3 pickups and the rhythm guitarist ALWAYS played the Tele. You just could not have both guitarists playing the same guitars since you wouldn't be able to see the pecking order on stage...

Steve Ahola

[David Schwab]

The Strat was designed for musician Bill Carson, who made suggestions about what he would want on a guitar, including the third pickup.

[Steve A.]

Actually the idea of not using a tone control on the bridge pickup makes a lot of sense for a strat with a humbucker in the bridge. (Do you think that Leo had looked into the future and saw that coming? )