Zero Fret Guitar?

[dumbassbob]

I found 2 65 Teisco guitars in the trash, they both work one is a Bass and one is a guitar the frets are worn down to .030 and there are no nuts...I have never worked on a Zero fret guitar..Does the string lay on,or over the zero fret...Is the nut just to keep the strings from moving...I did level and crown them as best as I could....

[Paleo Pete]

That just about covers it. I had an Epiphone years ago made like that, I wish they all made zero frets. I loved it. The only reason for a nut is to keep the string spacing correct, the zero fret is higher than the other frets and acts as a nut. Mine was an acoustic, and that zero fret gave it action you wouldn't believe for an acoustic.

The one thing you need to make sure of though, is DO NOT file that zero fret down to the same height as the other frets...(I'm sure you already guessed that, but had to point it out anyway.) The zero fret is then set the same way as the nut on a standard guitar neck, you want about the same string clearance, it just allows the overall string height to be lower and the action all the way up the neck should be great once it's been set up right. The nut should be snug, to keep the string spacing, and lower than the zero fret, but with the zero fret, nut slot height is not critical, that's set at the zero fret.

I've never seen one with a zero fret and no nut. Usually they do have one, just to keep the strings from slipping side to side.

Oh Almost posted and realized I almost missed a question...or only partially answered it anyway...

Does the string lay on,or over the zero fret...

The strings sit ON the zero fret, it acts partially as a nut. It should also give it pretty good sustain...

[dumbassbob]

Thanks, I just did the bass nut,filed it down so the string just sits on the fret,the neck has a 12%radiusI reset it and it sounds really good I cant belive some one would toss them in the dump.

[Mick Bailey]

The zero fret has the advantage in that the open strings sound fretted; the same material is in contact with the string for all frets and the fret crown is present, rather than the abrupt takeoff from a nut. The string relief is also equitable between the open strings and first fretted position, so there's no difference in feel between fretting the first or second position. With a well set up nut this is also the case, but most guitars I get are set up with the nut set too high, possibly to err on the side of caution; the difference between just right and too low can be one stroke of the file when it gets down to achieving perfection.

I don't understand though, why would the zero fret would need to be any higher than the other frets - if all of the frets are levelled then the bridge height, neck camber and neck relief should accommodate the zero fret, just as (say) a capo or finger would on any other fret. I've just checked my Steinberger (original factory setup) and the zero fret is levelled to all the rest. Or am I missing something in my understanding?

[Paleo Pete]

I should be so lucky...I usually have to pay for my guitars...

Glad it worked out. I'm not familiar with bass setups, but for a guitar you also need to check the fret clearance same as with a standard guitar neck. The zero fret should be filed to bring the string height down, but not too far because it will cause fret buzz at the first couple of frets if it's too low. Once the frets are filed down, the zero fret is now too high, too much string clearance at the nut end, that will cause you to pull the strings out of tune fretting it. So you dress the zero fret too but do it carefully to avoid fret buzz on that end. Same should apply for a bass but the recommended fret clearance is most likely much different. You want a very slight clearance at the first fret when the string is fretted at the second fret. A bit of looking and I can't find a distinct measurement, but it's only a few thousandths of an inch. Probably no more than .005 -.007". Google fret dress and nut slot or nut slot height and you'll find lots of info. I learned it years ago by both trial and error and books...Unfortunately the Internet didn't exist and I needed to know how to do this, the only guitar tech in town had made a mess of two friends' guitars...and I had to clean them up...he had actually tied the strings on, tied knots in the damn things. Took me 45 minutes just to remove strings...Fortunately it was just setups in that case, and pickup height, not fret dress and nut slots and truss rod adjustments...all that came later...but it got me started on learning to do it myself.

[Paleo Pete]

Mick - I'm not sure, I've only had the one zero fret, but if I understand it correctly, the zero fret sets the string height same as a nut would, so it should be slightly higher, not exactly level to the rest of the frets. That's the way my Epiphone was set up from the factory. It seems it would work the same as a capo, as you said, but mine was slightly higher. Not much, it only takes a very slight gap to do the trick.

I've seen the same as you, plenty guitars set too high right out of the box, and a lot of guitar players have intonation problems as a result, from stretching the strings with normal fretting. When I get one like this I usually remove the nut completely and try to remove a little off t he bottom, rather than trying to completely refile the nut slots themselves. But you have the same gotcha doing it that way, take off a little too much and you're building a new nut..been there done that...but there is a less expensive and less troublesome cure, a strip of tape on the bottom of the nut, raises it slightly, and won't affect action or sound.

Oh yeah any time you deal with putting a nut back on, use plain Elmers glue, not wood glue, and NEVER super glue. One small dot of Elmers glue against the vertical surface of the neck, not on the bottom of the nut. String pressure does more of the holding than glue will. String it immediately. Plain Elmers is water soluble, and pops off easily while wood glue will not, and super glue will rip chunks of the neck off...wood glue will too actually, if you're not really careful...super glue is a guitar tech's nightmare...never use it for anything on a guitar. Yeah I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but it might be good for future reference.

[Rick Turner]

Check out the Zero Glide nut system...really slick.

And a zero fret only needs to be a bit higher if you're trying to compensate for the filing effects of string changes. If all is well, it's just another fret and the action should feel just as though you put a capo on at the first fret.

[Bruce Johnson]

Yes, I use zero frets on all my basses, and I trim them to about 0.010" higher than the other frets. That's on basses with flatwounds and medium to high action. On lower action instruments, you can trim the zero fret down to just a few thousandths above the others, and they will work fine. Making the zero fret exactly level with the other frets is risky. It may be okay if the neck has a good relief curve in the first five frets but, if not, it can make the neck real touchy for buzzing. It's better to leave it a little bit high.

[Paleo Pete]

Bruce - Thanks for that, I don't know enough about bass setups to make any solid recommendations. Good to know, I may need that in the future...I can handle guitars but never fooled with bass much.

[Rick Turner]

I'll reiterate...zero frets only need to be higher than leveled frets to take into account the probable increased wear on them. Otherwise, they're like the action coming off of a capoed fret.

There is also...and this relates to some other threads, the fact that strings do not necessarily come straight off of either a nut nor zero fret in a perfectly straight direction. There is a bit of a curve where the string is biased up and away from being directly even with the nut, zero fret, or fret. And that is one of the major reasons why the termination of the string is "fuzzy"...requiring intonation compensation. The working string length literally gets shorter at increasing harmonic modes; this because of the string's stiffness having progressively greater effect at higher harmonics.

[dumbassbob]

A feeler guage and a $20.00 digital caliper really help...On a level fret Ican find a .001th difference...I can do better setups then when I paid someone $100. and waited 2 weeks...Spending $200. on some tools at StewMac,a cordumaun wet stone on ebay as a fret level(the best) and you tube I do good setups on my tele,and strats...Now if only I knew more about amps

[Rick Turner]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is a "cordumaun wet stone"? As far as I can remember and as far as I can Google, there ain't no such thing...

Do you mean "carborundum wet stone"? And if that's what you mean, I don't agree that it's the best way to level fret tops... It's what I first learned to use in 1963...50 years ago...and I'd never go back to doing fret levels that way; it's crude as hell, and you'd better be leveling your grindstone fairly often for it to work at all.

I use a dead straight and flat mill file for really rough work, and sticky backed 220 to 400 grit sand paper stuck to a dead level surface for rough leveling. Of course, the better you get at fret installation, the less you need to level.

[Rick Turner]

And I'm sorry to be a snarky old fart, but if you're going to give advice on an Internet forum, please get your terminology correct. Otherwise you just come off as ignorant. Not stupid, mind you, just ignorant. Bear in mind that the Internet has very unforgiving and very public fact checkers and editors lurking...like me...just waiting to pounce upon incorrect usage of vocabulary or methods. I'm your worst nightmare re. this stuff. I've been at it longer than you've been alive!

[dumbassbob]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is a "cordumaun wet stone"? As far as I can remember and as far as I can Google, there ain't no such thing...

Do you mean "carborundum wet stone"? And if that's what you mean, I don't agree that it's the best way to level fret tops... It's what I first learned to use in 1963...50 years ago...and I'd never go back to doing fret levels that way; it's crude as hell, and you'd better be leveling your grindstone fairly often for it to work at all.

I use a dead straight and flat mill file for really rough work, and sticky backed 220 to 400 grit sand paper stuck to a dead level surface for rough leveling. Of course, the better you get at fret installation, the less you need to level.

sorry thats what I ment..I was too lazy to walk down to my garage to remember the spelling and I was so off google didn't understand,but as a level it works pretty good I have radius blocks and a 14 in flat milled steel level,but the wet stone does do a pretty good job...AT LEAST THE CALIPER SAY SO....bUT IF YOU A THE tURNER

[dumbassbob]

this supid computer jumped,I ment to say are you the Rick Turner? Buckingham guitar?