Natural finish for CV 50's tele neck?

[Steve A.]

I used plain 'ol tung oil on a frankenstrat (maple neck and fingerboard) about twenty one years ago. This is still my main guitar. The back has polished up, from use, to a fairly glossy finish, but it doesn't seem to feel sweaty/sticky like higher build, surface finishes. The fingerboard shows a little wear and dirt spots in the most played areas (as any maple fingerboard guitar would after over twenty years) but nothing you wouldn't expect from a "finished" board.

Do you recall what brand of tung oil you used? It seems like each company has their own formulation. :-(
Now that you mention it I think that I might have used tung oil on the back of the neck of that LP Jr Special (or Special Jr- I get them mixed up!)

BTW do you remember when household products used to have fairly comprehensive ingredient lists? I would like to see that come back! I had sent an email to a company a few years ago asking for a list of ingredients because I was concerned what I might be inhaling when using their product since I had COPD. They replied that my doctor would have to mail them the request printed on company letterhead. Geez... its not like I'm trying to sell state secrets to the Russians!

In any case Tru-Oil is really amazing stuff- it is easy to apply and dries very fast. I'm not sure exactly what it is good for but I think it will come in handy for some of my projects. I made a plywood "sled" for mats at the health center gym and used a finish that took days to cure. We'll see how it holds up for my tele fretboard. Here is a comparison of Tru-Oil, Danish oil and tung oil from TDPRI...

Danish Oil vs. Tung Oil Finish vs. Tru-Oil: A neck finish report - Telecaster Guitar Forum

It looks like the OP's main complaint with Tru-Oil on a fretboard was how it would build up at the base of the frets, a moot point when preparing a fretboard for refretting.

Steve

P.S. Quick question- how to deal with one fret slot that is too wide?

[Chuck H]

It was a house brand product from Dunne Paints (not the same people as Dunn Edwards). It was called "Pure Tung Oil" and came in a one quart paint can (not a screw top can). The Dunne paint company has been gone for about twenty two years.

IMHE products that dry fast are usually fortified with standard resins like urethane or alkyd. Also IMHE the Watco Danish oil (owned by Deft, who sells the same product under their own brand too) is a softer finish even after a thorough cure time. I'm not familiar with the Tru Oil but it has a very good reputation. I'd be apprehensive because of the fast dry time. Ordinary polymerized long oils won't dry that fast. But with a name like Tru Oil I expect they have some formula they feel is enough like the old familiar product but with enhanced performance. Like I said, good rep. For all my oil finish projects in the last eight years I've been using Daly's Seafin Teak oil. I'm not sure what it is but it's not fast. it's faster than the old Tung oil though and dries a bit harder. I like that. The most telling project I've used it on so far that may relate to a guitar was a pool cue shaft. Four applications produced a low, even sheen and no annoying stickiness in use like a surface build finish. Seems a little more durable than the finish on my guitar too. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a guitar.

A too wide fret slot should ideally be sawn clean, fitted with a piece of glued wood and then re sawn. If it's just a tiny bit wide, and you're not overly concerned with cosmetics, you can probably steam swell the slot and treat it with a cyanoacrylate product to harden it. But wait for the pros to chime in on this one.

[John_H]

I looked up the MSDS for the Tru-Oil. It doesn't list all of the materials in it's proprietary ingredients, but does shed some light on it. It was revised at the end of 2012. If the formula changed at that time I don't know. I was under the impression that it was basically shellac/oil/wax, and judging from the solvent used which is mineral spirits, there probably aren't polymers there. I think it's the LD50: NDA (sodium alkylbenzenesulphonate) that California probably doesn't like.

It dries pretty fast, but really doesn't get hard for a few weeks. It sands easily, but can take many coats to fill the pores in the grain.

I'm always careful to not pollute the unused product.
link for MSDS >https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/getat...ck-Finish.aspx

[Chuck H]

I was under the impression that it was basically shellac/oil/wax,..

Interesting. I usually see shellac using an alcohol solvent which would be incompatible with mineral spirits.

..and judging from the solvent used which is mineral spirits, there probably aren't polymers there.

On the contrary. In my line of work there are many polymerized coatings that call for mineral spirits as the solvent. Not that polymerization is bad. I was just noting that faster drying isn't typically a feature of the old school long oil products. Which DO polymerize. Very slowly. I should have said "synthetic polymers". Which are often the faster drying products.

..I think it's the LD50: NDA (sodium alkylbenzenesulphonate)

Hmmm... That's a surfactant. And if the "alkyl" prefix and "benzene" suffix means anything (in other spellings the "sulphonate" is a separate word and is sometimes spelled "sulfonate") it may be acting as an emulsifier for two otherwise incompatible solvents. This is something I've seen in other products designed to polymerize IN the wood after surface penetration. The faster drying might be contributed to this emulsification as most shellacs are VERY fast.

I need to check it out for future projects. Sounds interesting. Did I mention the good reputation? So many people have had great results with it that I would use it and not trouble much about looking back. Tung oil is really old school. Dries slow, takes forever to cure up hard and has the unpleasant quality of rewetting and upsetting the finish once it begins surface building if you even LOOK at too soon. Sort of like an improved boiled linseed oil at best. True oil seems like a more effective and purpose designed product for a finer finish on hard use items (it's most popular as a gun stock finish I think) where you might see tung oil used on old fur house trim, deck railings and other architectural applications. It was the best we had once upon a time though.

[John_H]

Did I mention the good reputation?

lol, yeah I think you did

Anymore, I only use it on necks. It's easily maintained, and feels great. I'm always experimenting with different finishes trying to find things that aren't so time consuming. Some of the specialized coatings are so expensive that their price keeps me away. I'd like to experience using them, but I can't see spending that much to finish a guitar. This is what I'm currently using. It's super clear, and cures really fast. At $40 gal. it's affordable.

[Steve A.]

Fret slot woes... The one wide slot would not hold a 6150 fret securely but the shorter 6140 has a wider tang so I re-refretted the neck with those.

The liquid hide glue did not work very well on the rock hard surface of the maple neck so I used CA. Hammering in frets radiused by hand with pliers I modified isucks! Hammering in the high E fret end flush would cause the other fret end to lift up just a tiny little bit- but too much for my OCD. So I came up with a little trick: after tapping in one fret end tight I would hit that side w/ CA. I did the last 8 frets like that and after waiting awhile I hammered down the other frets and hit them w/ CA. Fortunately most of my guitars have rosewood fretboard so I won't have to deal with all of that BS very often.

I'm doing another PRS SE using liquid hide glue, this time brushing some water into the rosewood slots first thinking that it might make a better bond. LHG is really cool because it is water-soluble for easy clean-up.

I clamp down 1/2 of the fretboard with the 8 inch long radiused block, securing it with velcro straps and leaving it like that for 12+ hrs. I do the higher frets first because there are a lot more of them. The 8 inch block doesn't reach the 1st fret so I use a mini-bar clamp to hold it down.

(My goal is to check the fretwork on all of my 40+ guitars whether they need minor or major fret leveling or a full regret job. I started off with a cheap $25 kit for minor fret leveling but have become completely obsessed with this. I guess that is why they call it an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder... )

EDIT With liquid hide glue I brush it all over the fret slot and after hammering the fret in wipe off the excess with a rag dipped in warm water. If any of the glue remains on the fretboard you can remove it with a damp rag the next day (or at any time in the future from what I have read.) I really like not having to deal with nasty solvents!

My friend Felix (from whom I learned the method that he learned from his luthier friend Mitch) calls it "Franklin" liquid hide glue so a Google search for that turns up a lot of new hits like this article...

Hide Glue in Liquid Form | Popular Woodworking Magazine

EDIT 2: The glue in my PRS SE had dried sufficiently so I started working on that instead of the tele neck. I was going to cut off the "bones"- the fret ends hanging over the edges of the fretboard about 5/8" (I trimmed the precut Jespar EVO fret wire for each fret after adding a little bend to it to underradius it- it comes with a 10" radius which I think is great because it is really easy to bend it a little bit more or a little bit less by hand if you are hammering them in. Order directly from Jescar and you get a 20% discount for 5 or more sets bringing the EVO frets down to $16 and the regular frets down to $8. The shipping was $7.98 and I believe that it would cover any shipment that fit into that size box, rather than based on the dollar amount which some companies do.)

Back to the story... I decided NOT to cut off the "bones" until after I had already leveled the frets (even though they were scratches just waiting to happen.)

[David Schwab]

I'm refretting the Classic Vibes 50's tele in "Gig bag disaster" and sanded off the glossy finish under the frets of the maple neck. I love natural (or natural-ish) finishes on fretboards.What are my options here? Without guidance from the internet I would probably use some sort of oil finish that would protect the maple while still allowing it to breathe.

Any suggestions?

Steve A.

You mean you want a dirty fingerboard?

Wood doesn't breathe. Stop that thought right in its tracks. It's dead. Finish is applied to protect the wood from getting dirty, and to stop it from absorbing moisture and warping and rotting. It seals the wood.

Rosewood doesn't need a finish because it's oily. Leo fender started using rosewood fretboards when he saw some of his guitars on TV, and the finish had worn off and the wood was dirty. And even if you oil a maple fingerboard it will get dirty and needs to be touched up often.

Nitro (or acrylic or poly) lacquer is as natural as any other finish you might apply. None of them are natural. Leaving the wood unfinished is a very bad idea.

Also don't use liquid hide glue. It's water based, and that's not a good thing to use on fingerboards or fret slots. You can cause it to warp. Plus the hide glue in bottles is just not very good because it's not fresh. Real hide glue is applied warm.

Personally I don't use hide glue at all. I use Titebond for guitars, and usually epoxy for gluing on fretboards.

For fretting I use CA glue, IF I use any glue at all.

[David Schwab]

lol, yeah I think you did

Anymore, I only use it on necks. It's easily maintained, and feels great. I'm always experimenting with different finishes trying to find things that aren't so time consuming. Some of the specialized coatings are so expensive that their price keeps me away. I'd like to experience using them, but I can't see spending that much to finish a guitar. This is what I'm currently using. It's super clear, and cures really fast. At $40 gal. it's affordable.

I use catalyzed Sherwin-Williams lacquer for many years. It was excellent. It was my understanding is that they didn't make lacquer any more. Glad to see they still do (or do again).

[Chuck H]

I don't know whether SW does or doesn't distribute lacquer any more, but catalyzed lacquer isn't technically lacquer. Many companies also use the term catalyzed varnish. Neither the lacquer or varnish monikers are accurate, they are only used for marketing product that is intended to replace those finishes. Both are modern plastic finishes that have nothing to do with lacquer or varnish. That doesn't make them bad finishes. I expect quite the opposite is true. I mention it because I wouldn't want some unsuspecting luthier here to advertise anything like "genuine lacquer" as a finish and end up in a pickle because what they're really selling is "genuine plastic epoxy".

[John_H]

They've still got lacquer too. There's a SW chemical coatings distributor here. They don't have it at regular paint stores. It is what you say. Conversion lacquer / Conversion varnish. It's not available everywhere, but hey this is Nevada. I like it so far. It sprays nice, and is made for wood. It bonds great, builds fast, and sands easily. I've been trying for a while to find a product I'm comfortable with.

[Chuck H]

SW does stipulate that their "precat" conversion lacquer is in an alkyd resin. It's in the MSDS and some of the lit. As far as I'm concerned this doesn't technically qualify as a lacquer. That title should be reserved for uncatalyzed nitrocellulose lacquer. All I'm saying is that if the resin is alkyd then the resin isn't lacquer. At most, precatalyzed lacquer in an alkyd resin is just the use of dry nitro lacquer as the solid while the resin remains a modern plastic. Just sayin'. Sort of like the food equivalent of "made with THIS" instead of "100% THIS" if you get my meaning. Again, this doesn't mean they're bad finishes. Perhaps they actually do achieve an authentic lacquer look this way. I've never scrutinized it because it didn't seem important.

[John_H]

I agree Chuck. Lacquer is a pretty broad term anymore. It seems to represent anything that behaves somewhat like nitrocellulose. The composition of the product doesn't concern me as much as the end result, and the labor involved to get there. It's frustrating to me that applying the finish is the most labor intensive part of making a guitar. I can knock out the woodwork like a beaver on adderall, but feel like I'm stuck in the mud when finishing. This precat seems like a step in the right direction.

[Steve A.]

Also don't use liquid hide glue. It's water based, and that's not a good thing to use on fingerboards or fret slots. You can cause it to warp. Plus the hide glue in bottles is just not very good because it's not fresh. Real hide glue is applied warm.

I've attached a PDF file that I created from an article in Popular Woodworking Magazine as well as a link to that article. Modern liquid hide glue is not the same as hot hide glue that you would heat up; there are some similarities but it a completely different animal.

Let’s first take a look at the make-up of these two products. Old Brown Glue is a mixture of animal collagen and urea with no other additives. Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue lists cyanoguanidine (used in the manufacture of plastics and pharmaceuticals) and ammonium thiocyanate (used chiefly as a herbicide and in textile printing).

Hide Glue in Liquid Form.pdf

Hide Glue in Liquid Form | Popular Woodworking Magazine

My guitarist friend Felix and his luthiery guru Mitch have been refretting guitars for many years using Franklin/Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. Felix refrets some of his guitars once or twice a year (being blind he'd rather refret a guitar than do a leveling/recrown when he wears down his 6100 frets) and I think that LHG makes it easier for him to do his re-refrets.

Steve A.

[Steve A.]

Also don't use liquid hide glue. It's water based, and that's not a good thing to use on fingerboards or fret slots. You can cause it to warp.

Thanks for mentioning that. I'm in the middle of a refret job on a second PRS SE using Jescar 47104 EVO gold frets* and although I had first leveled the fretboard I've spent way too many hours leveling and recrowning, leveling and recrowning the frets which are now much shorter than .047.

The first PRS refret went well- there were maybe 3 or 4 high spots that had to be brought down but this one has been a real headache. The difference was undoubtedly a stupid experiment I tried. "With LHG being water-soluble why not pre-wet the slots so the glue can sink into the wood better." Scrap that idea- the pre-wetting and general overuse of water caused the rosewood to swell enough to screw up the leveled fretboard. So I will be very careful about water on rosewood fretboards. The LHG is very thick so I don't think that enough of its moisture soaks into the fretboard to cause swelling. Or Mitch and Felix would have stopped using it years ago.

Thanks for the heads-up about water and rosewood boards!

Steve A.


* Jescar precut EVO gold frets can be bought with any radius from Philadelphia Luthiery but I got these directly from Jescar Enterprise in NY at $20 for a bag of 25 frets. Or buy 5 and the price drops 20% to $16. (Their NS frets are $10/25 and their SS frets are $15/25. Their frets are pre-radiused to 10" which works out well for the hammerers in the house (it is easy to bend or unbend them manually to the radius you desire- much easier than bending the straight frets from Dunlop.) I haven't tried their nickel silver frets yet but at $8/25 in 5-lots their price is much better than Dunlop frets on eBay.

https://www.jescar.com/?product_cat=fretwire

[END OF UNPAID ENDORSEMENT]

[Chuck H]

I agree Chuck. Lacquer is a pretty broad term anymore. It seems to represent anything that behaves somewhat like nitrocellulose. The composition of the product doesn't concern me as much as the end result, and the labor involved to get there. It's frustrating to me that applying the finish is the most labor intensive part of making a guitar. I can knock out the woodwork like a beaver on adderall, but feel like I'm stuck in the mud when finishing. This precat seems like a step in the right direction.

As a painting contractor I come across all manor of misnomer in product descriptions. And if you're reading along you can see that David and Steve have their own, similar issue going simultaneously. The best thing you can do for yourself WRT finishing is to put in the effort and build a clean room with some form of filtration/circulation system. Some "spray shops" go so far as to include wet hepa filter systems. I do fine with a $20 box fan and home heater filters. Both are 20' square. Some 2x2 lumber and four mil plastic are pretty cheap in the long run if it makes your life easier. As you design, keep in mind that you may want to (or need to) replace the plastic now and then. Do use a respirator even though you have circulation. Another tip... Use a spray bottle to dampen your clothes before you step into the clean room. The less dust you need to polish out the easier it will be. ALWAYS strain the material and ALWAYS pay attention to solvent compatibility and sprayer care. Fisheyes and cloudy spots WILL ruin your day. If you follow all the rules the results happen they way they should without extra time or effort. I admit it's a lot of effort anyway.

EDIT: Another tip. WRT catalyzed finishes go ahead and play close to the edge on how much finish you apply. You don't want runs if you can get it just right, but it's A LOT easier to nib, wet sand and polish out runs on a catalyzed finish than it is to sand and polish a rough "orange peel" finish caused by more coats that are too thin. The opposite is true of real nitro lacquer. Nitro "burns". Meaning it re melts into the previous coat. This makes it possible to ignore less than perfect initial coats. Always go with several light coats with nitro. Not true of catalyzed finishes.