Tone caps of different materials in a guitar = different tones?

[freefrog]

Please, read ALL my explanations before to reply. Thx! :-)

For YOU, do various tone caps ‘’sound’’ different in a guitar ?

IOW, when there’s various tone caps made of different materials but with the same capacitance, do YOU think them to alter the tone differently when mounted successively as tone caps in an electric guitar?

Yes, I’m beating a dead horse and fuelling a stupid fire altogether… But let me explain a few things:

1)I’ve my own experience and POV of (open minded) hobbyist on this question which intrigues me for several years. It made me start many experiments for the pure pleasure of understanding and knowledge.

2)About this subject, I’ve insistently questioned (and asked their help to) several engineers in electronics and some of my direct colleagues who teach physics to future engineers. Enough to give to some of our students the idea to work ‘’scientifically’’ on this question.

3)All this stuff feeds a “Work in progress” for almost two years.

4)The goal of this topic is simply to “contextualize” epistemologically the work mentioned above.

Everyone knows that sociologically, this kind of questions motivates spectacular reactions: asking if tone caps “sound” different is an extremely “hot” subject on most guitar forums, and each topic dedicated to it quickly degenerates in an intellectual war between hardened certitudes.

So, I’d like to know what is your opinion of professionals on this question. Maybe it will reflect the controversies noticed on mainstream forums… And maybe not.

I open a poll because it will avoid these long polemical and sterile discussions that this theme always feeds… But of course, I’ll be respectfully grateful for any answer wrote by any member of this forum, whatever you want or have to reply to my question.

Thx in advance!

[Enzo]

Certainly we can turn a controversial topic into a poll, but really, you think that will avoid long back and forth?

Like the Mallory versus orange drop contest. What almost never happens is measuring the part. So instead of comparing a 0.001 orange drop to a 0.001 Mallory, the real test is a 0.0013 against a 0.0015. So of course they sound different. And some caps are affected by the voltage across them. Changes their capacitance. Some guys are aware of these sorts of thing and assume they have it covered. Others just assume it won;t be a factor.

[freefrog]

Certainly we can turn a controversial topic into a poll, but really, you think that will avoid long back and forth?

I don't think nothing: I (respectfully) "measure" opinions about the discussed topic.

And I thank you for your answer!

[Justin Thomas]

I'm with Enzo - there's not enough true study to get a truly scientific test. Myself? Sure I've headd a difference, but it's not worth my time and expense to keep changing parts chasing a magical tone, when I could be playing my guitar and making music with it, which has an exponentiqlly greater effect on the tone of my insgrument! I'll change it when it breaks. I can make up for any other tonal changes by twiddling a knob or something. Besides, who wants to sound exactly the same forever? Boring! If my guitar or amp changes tone due to a new part, work with it. Keeps things fresh.

And I think the third choice on the poll should be "maybe..."

Justin

[freefrog]

t's not worth my time and expense to keep changing parts chasing a magical tone, when I could be playing my guitar and making music with it, which has an exponentiqlly greater effect on the tone of my insgrument! I'll change it when it breaks. I can make up for any other tonal changes by twiddling a knob or something. Besides, who wants to sound exactly the same forever? Boring! If my guitar or amp changes tone due to a new part, work with it. Keeps things fresh.

Believe it or not, that's how I see the whole thing as well... :-))
I've renounced this week to buy an FX unit just because I don't want to pass my time to tweak instead of playing. :-/

Personally , I don't "chase" tone through caps. I just see a funny intellectual challenge in the whole question for a long time and my perplexity is not only "technical" : I'm also interested in the cultural / psychological / sociological factors involved when it comes to this (futile) question of a sound due (or not) to capacitors...

...but anyway, it's not for "personal" reasons that I've created this topic. :-)

And thx for your answer too!

[big_teee]

No I don't hear any difference, as long as the value is exactly the same.
This thread should be in Guitar Tech, not Pickup makers!

[tedmich]

thread fail

[freefrog]

No I don't hear any difference, as long as the value is exactly the same.
This thread should be in Guitar Tech, not Pickup makers!

...but it was for pickups makers... :-(

If it's a mistake, I'm sorry. If a moderator wants to put this topic elsewhere, it's OK. Thx!

Whatever happens with this thread and whatever is the feeling due to my "personal" answers, thanks to consider that "my" question is not a way to chat in vain: it's a way to collect infos about the most current opinion of people who are specialized in guitar tones (since they build PU's). The goal is to contextualize some tech experiments done here (and to decide how to deal/what to do with the results collected). :-)

[freefrog]

thread fail

If you derail it, yes, it will fail. :-))

JK. Thx for the recreation...

[Joe Gwinn]

The matter of capacitor dielectrics has been beaten to death in this forum. Search for existing threads.

The bottom line was that if one didn't do a blind A versus B comparison, having carefully matched everything except the type of dielectric, one was fooling oneself.

The threads then died down, so I'd hazard that nobody could tell the difference between various kinds of film (versus electrolytic) capacitor. In other words, the effects disappeared when a well-controlled experiment was performed.

Afterthought: Some kinds of ceramic capacitor show a large voltage coefficient of capacitance, so I suppose some kinds of ceramin capacitor can be detected by ear, in a sufficiently controlled lab experiment. What isn't clear if one can detect this effect outside the lab.

[g1]

thread fail

I'll see your fail and raise you a smack in the head . (click on image)


Sorry freefrog, I couldn't resist.

Yes, I'm the idiot who voted yes in the poll. As Enzo suggested, there are other things aside from passive capacitance value that may change based on material. So even if we control for value, there may be other differences we have not controlled for. If there are differences, they will be somehow measureable, and there will undoubtedly be some guy who has good enough ears to hear it. I'm not that guy, but it doesn't mean some little difference does not exist.

[tedmich]

this is fun! ok I'll vote!

[big_teee]

The Vids are fun! Do you think Pete is worried about Cap tone here?
T

[freefrog]

Thx to all the contributors until now. Each of the answers AND the rating of this thread are extremely instructive, at various levels.

The matter of capacitor dielectrics has been beaten to death in this forum.

After several years of work around this question here, I was conscious of that, and I've read several times the other threads that you mention. I've purposedly asked a "risky" beaten-to-death question in order to evaluate the "ambiance" (the collective mood) about the discussed topic hic et nunc. The reactions expressed go beyond my hopes. :-))

[Justin Thomas]

Never a "Duh!" Moment around here...
>
More vidoes, pleaze! And someone get a grant for some strap locks for all these guys!
Justin