Electronics upgrade kit?

[Wiborg]

Hi, I've been thinking of buying a electronis upgrade kit for my Epiphone Sheraton II guitar. I've been recommended RS GuitarWorks (http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore...hp?cPath=31_60) but I'm unsure what kit to buy. I know I want a vintage kit, still I'm uncertain which of these to buy. I need a kit with 2x volume knobs, 2x tone knobs and 1x pickup switch (neck, bridge and both). But this is where I fall off, should I get the one with a long shaft or the ones with the short shaft? Does it matter?

And also, does anyone have experience with installing something like this into a guitar without a plate to remove on the back? I know it will be hard and complicated to install this as my guitar doesn't have easy access to all the wires, but as far as I know it won't be impossible? I'll have to use a string through the f-hole, right?

[Earl Norton]

remove pickups and access thru there.

[Wiborg]

Ok, so you've done this before? Do you know which kit I should get though?

[Earl Norton]

I think you need the short ones but call the vendor and ask them. You will need to attach a string or dental floss to each component before removing nuts and all. The string is then used to guide each new component into place. It would be wise to go ahead and buy a book on guitar repair... It would come in handy. If you intend to replace the pickups at some time, this would be a good time to do that.http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Video,_D...on_Guitar.html

[Howlin' Mad Mac]

Hmmmm... I don't know about "kits" but if you want to upgrade the wiring in your Epiphone Sheraton all you need are (4) 500K short shaft pots, (2) .047uf capacitors (I reccomend Sprague Orange Drops or Mallory 150's) & a USA made Switchcraft right angle toggle switch. Now hollow bodies & thinlines are a bitch to work on, no getting around that. For best results remove both pickups/mounting rings as it's easier to access where the controls are mounted thru the brige pickup opening, the create a cardboard template to wire everything to before you mount to the guitar. Note also that the mounting hole for that cheap Asian switch will need to be enlarged. Best tool for this job is generall a tapered reamer although if you're confident of your woodworking skills a Dremel can accomplish the task in seconds (or really mess your guitar up even quicker if you don't know what you're doing), if neither of these are available I suppose a rat tail file & lots of patience should work as well. Now that you're running from your computer screen in terror, it's really not all that bad, just take your time & be extra, extra careful. Good luck!

[David Schwab]

I've replaced all the electronics in a Sheraton II. It's not fun, but not all that hard either.

If you are just thinking about doing the pots and stuff, is it because they are defective? If you are looking for a better tone, replace the pickups. The stock pickups are total crap.

My customer had me replace them with Duncan Alnico II Pros. I also replaced all the electronics. We also replaced the bridge with a better quality Gotoh.

It was like a brand new guitar, and sounded great. The big improvement was from the pickups more than anything else.

[jrfrond]

I'm with David on this. If you're going to monkey with electronics on a hollowbody, which is always a pain in the ass, then THAT is the time to upgrade the Epiphone pickups to something better as well. Most of the Epi hollow and semihollow axes are pretty decent, and a lot of tone is lost in the mediocre pickups.

I have to tell you the truth: in my 30+ years working on countless guitars, I can't say that I can hear any difference between cheap and expensive pots and switches. They are ALL good, until they screw up. Some pots have better taper than others, but other than that, in my opinion, spending big $$$ on pricey pots and paper caps is HIGHLY overrated, especially if the pickups and/or the guitar is mediocre. The only reason to use anything "better" is increased reliability. In this case, I'd bankroll the bulk of the money for pickups, and just use standard CTS pots and polyester caps. In terms of reliability, you might want to swap a Switchcraft switch instead of the cheapo that is in there.

When you are dealing with a guitar that has no access door or cavity, you have to think ahead.

[David Schwab]

I have to tell you the truth: in my 30+ years working on countless guitars, I can't say that I can hear any difference between cheap and expensive pots and switches. They are ALL good, until they screw up. Some pots have better taper than others, but other than that, in my opinion, spending big $$$ on pricey pots and paper caps is HIGHLY overrated, especially if the pickups and/or the guitar is mediocre. The only reason to use anything "better" is increased reliability. In this case, I'd bankroll the bulk of the money for pickups, and just use standard CTS pots and polyester caps. In terms of reliability, you might want to swap a Switchcraft switch instead of the cheapo that is in there.

I agree 100%. Some of my personal basses have cheap pots I scrounged from who knows where. I used them because I was out of new 500K pots, they felt nice and smooth, and worked perfectly. They are probably 15-20 years old too. I also have some (probably Alpha) pots I bought in Radio Shack back in 70s and 80s in some of my instruments. Same holds for tone control caps.

I replace pots if they get scratchy and wont clean up with contract cleaner, of if I don't like the taper, or if they are mechanically broken.

I will say though that I have rewired some cheap guitars, using the same pots, but using heavier wire, and I can swear that made a difference. But maybe it didn't.

[jrfrond]

I will say though that I have rewired some cheap guitars, using the same pots, but using heavier wire, and I can swear that made a difference. But maybe it didn't.

Who knows? I will say that even techs are susceptible to the placebo effect. You also need to figure in what has happened to your ears or amp settings, etc. since you listened to the guitar the first time. It's really something that is too difficult to quantify, unless you were to apply audiometric testing.

[David Schwab]

Who knows? I will say that even techs are susceptible to the placebo effect. You also need to figure in what has happened to your ears or amp settings, etc. since you listened to the guitar the first time. It's really something that is too difficult to quantify, unless you were to apply audiometric testing.

That's true. I know it would make a difference in speakers, but shouldn't in a guitar. Unless the wire was very high in capacitance, which is only possible in coax.

Here's a story... I once had two 3-way stereo speakers I built into some empty JC Penny cabs someone gave me. I went to Radio Shack and picked out some drivers and cross overs. This was back when they had OK quality stuff at RS. In one box I used some thin wire that was actually in the box from the previous speakers. It looked like 26AWG. In the other I used some 16 AWG zip chord.

The cab with the heavier wire was louder and clearer sounding then the other one. I was very noticeable, and I was able to A/B them. After I rewired that with the zip chord they both sonded the same.

I should try a similar test in a guitar, but I'm already expecting that it wont matter much.

[jrfrond]

Funny you should mention the Radio Shack speakers Dave. I just rebuilt a '64 Super Reverb, which had only three speakers in it, which I replaced with four new Fender/Eminence alnico, as per the customer (the customer ALSO purchased all NOS RCA tubes...$$$$$!). Two were old Radio Shack made in the USA ceramic speakers which clearly sported seamed Jensen cones. I searched the part number on Google and it came up as a 10" hi-fi replacement speaker, but it was a guitar speaker if I ever saw one. Sounded pretty good too! I've still got them, as the customer didn't want them back.

Ron Wickersham of Alembic performed spectral analysis on Hi-Z pickup coax cable from Jack Casady's Guild Starfire bass in the early days and found that even 6" lopped off a lot of high-end harmonics, which is why they chose to mount the preamp/buffer in the pickups to translate to Low-Z. So perhaps there IS something to it, and maybe we just can't hear it. Hey, who am I to argue with Alembic, or Ron?

[David Schwab]

Funny you should mention the Radio Shack speakers Dave. I just rebuilt a '64 Super Reverb, which had only three speakers in it, which I replaced with four new Fender/Eminence alnico, as per the customer (the customer ALSO purchased all NOS RCA tubes...$$$$$!). Two were old Radio Shack made in the USA ceramic speakers which clearly sported seamed Jensen cones. I searched the part number on Google and it came up as a 10" hi-fi replacement speaker, but it was a guitar speaker if I ever saw one. Sounded pretty good too! I've still got them, as the customer didn't want them back.

I was told at the time that Electrovoice was making o lot of their speakers. My buddy had some very expensive ($800 each) hi-fi speakers and an Adcom amp and stuff, and scoffed at my RadioShack/JC Penny speakers until he heard them (with an old silver faced Pioneer tuner) and he was shocked. The secret was choosing the right components to work together.

Hey, who am I to argue with Alembic, or Ron?

Or Rick Turner for that matter. Certainly not I.

[jrfrond]

I was told at the time that Electrovoice was making o lot of their speakers. My buddy had some very expensive ($800 each) hi-fi speakers and an Adcom amp and stuff, and scoffed at my RadioShack/JC Penny speakers until he heard them (with an old silver faced Pioneer tuner) and he was shocked. The secret was choosing the right components to work together.



Or Rick Turner for that matter. Certainly not I.

I still have my old Pioneer SX-780 that I acquired after I repaired it and the customer didn't pick it up. It's built more like commercial audio than a home product. It's a keeper.

Yeah, Ron, Rick, Rich Lasner and all of the old and ex-Alembic people are, to me, THE guru's when it comes to high-end custom bass, guitar and electronic design. My brother was the first East Coast salesperson for Alembic when they were repped by L.D. Heater or Oregon, so I gained a lot of respect for these cats at an early age, around 11 or so. When I see a used Alembic going for a premium price on eBay, I never question it. Probably the only company that I feel that way about. They almost singlehandedly built the high-end electric bass and guitar industry, setting the bar for everyone else.

[Ronsonic]

I will say though that I have rewired some cheap guitars, using the same pots, but using heavier wire, and I can swear that made a difference. But maybe it didn't.

A good friend of mine, Mike Vans Evers is an abject tweak freak. Builds fancy cables and tuning accessories, including stuff for orchestral musicians, things like resonant floor plates to set a string bass, cello or other such on. He also does studio gear, mic pre's, compressors, etc. His main obsession / rant / theories center on the way things resonate within and around an instrument and how that affects the sound of the instrument.

He has demonstrated this stuff and some of those demonstrations center on the type and gauge of wire used in electric guitars and basses. There are differences. Things that show up in blind tests. Things that are heard by people who have no expectation of hearing them. I hear what he's going for but usually it's more trouble and more of a variable than I want to deal with. It's still there.

But, yeah, wire gauge and type makes a difference, more than pots do. In fact, just for fun take a 12ga solid buss solder it across the backs of the pots, leave a length extending out. Play, listen. Bend the excess into a curl, play and listen. Clip it off, play and listen. Yeah, it's weird, you'll hear it. Then you can decide if it matters or if you want to do anything about it.

[jrfrond]

A good friend of mine, Mike Vans Evers is an abject tweak freak. Builds fancy cables and tuning accessories, including stuff for orchestral musicians, things like resonant floor plates to set a string bass, cello or other such on. He also does studio gear, mic pre's, compressors, etc. His main obsession / rant / theories center on the way things resonate within and around an instrument and how that affects the sound of the instrument.

He has demonstrated this stuff and some of those demonstrations center on the type and gauge of wire used in electric guitars and basses. There are differences. Things that show up in blind tests. Things that are heard by people who have no expectation of hearing them. I hear what he's going for but usually it's more trouble and more of a variable than I want to deal with. It's still there.

But, yeah, wire gauge and type makes a difference, more than pots do. In fact, just for fun take a 12ga solid buss solder it across the backs of the pots, leave a length extending out. Play, listen. Bend the excess into a curl, play and listen. Clip it off, play and listen. Yeah, it's weird, you'll hear it. Then you can decide if it matters or if you want to do anything about it.

Yeah, that's more of an "audiofool" approach, and it's kinda cool, if not somewhat "tweaky" though. Man, I've come across guys who've built amps with 30ga solid silver wire, which goes against the whole "bigger is better" scenario. They say it minimizes "skin effect" over large-gauge oxygen-free copper wire. OK, whatever. But there comes a point where you must stop blaming the instrument and electronics, then, as Zappa so eloquently said "Shut up and play yer guitar".