Hum cancel for P90's

[FAC]

Folks,

I have a stock Gibson Les Paul Double Cutaway Historic Reissue with two P90's...it does not have hum canceling in the middle position. I do not want to change the sound of this guitar...I am VERY happy with it...but I would like to have hum canceling in the center switch position, if this is possible.

Is there a way to change one of the p90's easily to attain hum canceling in the center position?

If the answer is "no", I might be willing to replace the bridge pickup (but not the neck pickup)...suggestions?

Any help is greatly appreciated,

FAC

[bob p]

i can't help you with your noise question, but i'd just like to mention that I also have a Gibson LP with the stock P90 pickups and I love them. There are lots of people who will say that Gibson pickups are crap and that they need to be replaced as soon as you buy the guitar, but I'm not one of them. I think that the stock pups in my R6 still sound great, after several years with them.

just so that I don't get accused of not knowing good tone when i hear it, i also have a 1961 Epi Wilshire that was built using surplus Gibson hardware. It has original Gibson early-1950s no-wire TOM bridge and stop tailpiece, 1960 LP knobs, selectors, and original 1950s Gibson P90s.

[Sweetfinger]

Options...

Yes, it is possible, but you'd likely have to disassemble the pickup, switch the leads, and flip the magnets over. You could also just replace one of the pickups with a reverse polarity/reverse wound model, which woul do the trick. My vote is to add a dummy coil which would cut down the hum in ALL positions.

[FAC]

"...My vote is to add a dummy coil which would cut down the hum in ALL positions."

Can this be done without additional routing of wood, etc.? I don't want to alter the guitar in a major way.

I recall the Gibson Blueshawk had a dummy coil somewhere on the guitar, but I always assumed it was under the pickguard (correct me if I am wrong...I don't know the answer). There may be room under the pickguard of my guitar, but it would require additional routing, which I do not want to do.

Thanks

Oops...just looked at a picture of the Blueshawk...no pickguard...not sure where they put the dummy coil...

[Sweetfinger]

There should be room

You should have plenty of room in the control cavity for the coil.

[David Schwab]

Yes, it is possible, but you'd likely have to disassemble the pickup, switch the leads, and flip the magnets over. You could also just replace one of the pickups with a reverse polarity/reverse wound model, which woul do the trick. My vote is to add a dummy coil which would cut down the hum in ALL positions.

You don't need a reverse wound coil. Just flip the magnets over and wire the pickup with the phase reversed like you said. Same thing.

Flipping the magnets puts the pickup out of phase, so reversing the phase puts it back in phase, but now you have a humbucker.

The dummy coil would work, but will change the tone of the pickups.

The important thing is getting the same pole on both magnets facing the keeper or screws. So if it was originally both north, make them both south.

[Steve A.]

i can't help you with your noise question, but i'd just like to mention that I also have a Gibson LP with the stock P90 pickups and I love them. There are lots of people who will say that Gibson pickups are crap and that they need to be replaced as soon as you buy the guitar, but I'm not one of them. I think that the stock pups in my R6 still sound great, after several years with them.

just so that I don't get accused of not knowing good tone when i hear it, i also have a 1961 Epi Wilshire that was built using surplus Gibson hardware. It has original Gibson early-1950s no-wire TOM bridge and stop tailpiece, 1960 LP knobs, selectors, and original 1950s Gibson P90s.

As Will Rogers often said, "I've never met a P-90 I didn't like!"

The design is so simple that it is really hard to screw it up. Some people prefer the overwound versions that Seymour Duncan makes but I like them around 8 to 10k. Replacing the magnets can make them smoother or give them a little more bite.

But as for the rest of pickups that Gibson makes these days, I do like the BurstBuckers and the Classic 57's, but do not like the higher gain humbuckers they put on many of their guitars.

Are you referring to a real Les Paul with a carved top or the various LP Junior Specials (or is that Special Juniors?) with the flat top and the pair of P-90's? I got one of those Special Juniors for around $700 but it is blown off the stage by the PRS Soapbar II Maple guitars that I've been getting for $350 (I've been pulling the A5 magnets and putting in A2 to mellow them out a bit). I believe that there is a design problem with the Special Juniors I've seen because the neck pickup is not mounted in the sweet spot where the 24th fret would be. (IMO it should be right up to the neck.)

[David Schwab]

...because the neck pickup is not mounted in the sweet spot where the 24th fret would be. (IMO it should be right up to the neck.)

That's really a myth. I used to worry about placing pickups at harmonic nodes, but if you think about it, that only affects the open strings. As soon as you fret a string the pickup is no longer on the node.

The other issue with that is open string harmonics are very often cancled because the pickup is straddling that node.

Moving the neck pickup towards the bridge just makes it a bit brighter... but there is no magic location for pickups. Gibson obviously did that to have a stronger neck joint.

[Steve A.]

That's really a myth. I used to worry about placing pickups at harmonic nodes, but if you think about it, that only affects the open strings. As soon as you fret a string the pickup is no longer on the node.

The other issue with that is open string harmonics are very often cancled because the pickup is straddling that node.

Moving the neck pickup towards the bridge just makes it a bit brighter... but there is no magic location for pickups. Gibson obviously did that to have a stronger neck joint.

Myth or not, the neck pickup in my Gibson Les Paul Junior Special (now called the Les Paul Faded DC) sounds like crap. The same pickups mounted in the PRS Soapbar II sound great. And all of the Gold Top LP's with P-90's mounted right at the end of the fret board sound great, too. Here are links to the pages at the gibson site so that you can where the neck pickup is located:

http://tinyurl.com/2uwjc2

http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/pr...56Goldtop.html

On my Epiphone Alley Kat, I tried putting in several different pickups at the bridge and they all sounded weird- nothing like they did in other guitars that I've used them in. I ended up moving the pickup about 5/16th of an inch closer to the bridge and it sounds 100% better to me.

There is a science to the placement of pickups- each position seems to have its own sound. Some positions seem to work only if you are looking for a weird out of phase Jerry Garcia sound...

The argument about the 24th fret position only being relevant when using open positions ignores the acoustic component in a vintage PAF-style pickup. The inherent microphonics capture some of the acoustic sound coming from the neck and to my ears it sounds best when the pickup is right up to the neck. But that is just my own opinion and your mileage may be wrong.

For further evidence of my position here, look at the discussions of the various 24 fret PRS and Fender Showmaster guitars. While some people like the idea of having 2 extra frets, other people do not like how the neck pickup sounds on those guitars.

Peace out!

Steve Ahola

P.S. I believe that Gibson located the neck pickup where it is on their flattop double cuts to be consistent with the various 2 P-90 LP Junior guitars they made in the 50's and early 60's. FWIW it seems to be the single P-90 LP Juniors that have been the most popular among modern guitarists.

[David Schwab]

Myth or not, the neck pickup in my Gibson Les Paul Junior Special (now called the Les Paul Faded DC) sounds like crap. The same pickups mounted in the PRS Soapbar II sound great. And all of the Gold Top LP's with P-90's mounted right at the end of the fret board sound great, too.

Those are three different guitars, constructed differently, and with different scale lengths. The same pickups will not sound the same on a different guitar. What you need to do is test the same guitar by trying the pickup in two locations. I've done this when designing guitars, and after a while I tended to stick the pickup where it looked good. I still put a neck pickup near the 24th fret location, but that's not possible if you have 24 frets.

I bet if you could put a pickup where the 20th fret would be you might like it even better. You get a warmer fatter tone the closer to the nut you go.

[Steve A.]

Those are three different guitars, constructed differently, and with different scale lengths. The same pickups will not sound the same on a different guitar. What you need to do is test the same guitar by trying the pickup in two locations. I've done this when designing guitars, and after a while I tended to stick the pickup where it looked good. I still put a neck pickup near the 24th fret location, but that's not possible if you have 24 frets.

I bet if you could put a pickup where the 20th fret would be you might like it even better. You get a warmer fatter tone the closer to the nut you go.

I did try the same pickup in the two different locations on the Alley Kat, and it made a whole world of difference- that was the Seth Lover and it had the same Seth Lover-ness that I found when I've put them in Les Pauls and in my Heritage HS-535.

I was going to mention that the neck pickup would probably sound even better mounted at the 20th fret...

For a 24 fret guitar I would suggest trying a Firebird-style MiniHumbucker because the sensing window could be closer to the neck than a full-sized humbucker. I guess a SD-style "hot rails" pickup could be used as well, but I usually boycott them on general principle!

I agree with you that it isn't the specific ratios that are so important since you are playing on ~23 different positions on the fretboard. But just moving the Alley Kat bridge pickup 5/16th of an inch would change the ratios for all of the positions, for the better in my opinion. I seem to recall that there was a word for that in mathematics, but I can't recall the term...

Steve Ahola

[David Schwab]

For a 24 fret guitar I would suggest trying a Firebird-style MiniHumbucker because the sensing window could be closer to the neck than a full-sized humbucker. I guess a SD-style "hot rails" pickup could be used as well, but I usually boycott them on general principle!

I like those Strat sized humbuckers! It's not all that different from a mini-humbucker, it's just a super mini-humbucker. They overcome some of the problems with stacked pickups, but you do get the humbucker high harmonic cancelation, just higher than normal.

They are great if you want a humbucker tone in a single coil package.

Stacks sound like singles. My favorite Strat size neck pickup is now a Dimarzio Virtual Vintage Solo Pro.

The smaller the aperture of the pickup, the thinner the low end will be. It's not a bad idea to have a brighter neck pickup though, I even do that in my basses.

I agree with you that it isn't the specific ratios that are so important since you are playing on ~23 different positions on the fretboard. But just moving the Alley Kat bridge pickup 5/16th of an inch would change the ratios for all of the positions, for the better in my opinion. I seem to recall that there was a word for that in mathematics, but I can't recall the term...

On one of my basses I had two soapbars at the bridge. When I changed the pickups I just put in one. I was able to slide the pickup around and listen to it. A 1/4" does make a difference, but it's just a little deeper or brighter. I ended up putting it slightly closer to the neck than my usual bridge pickups are. I doubt it has anything to do with harmonic ratios, but you are sensing a larger arc of the string the closer to the neck you go, assuming you are playing open strings or low on the neck. If you play up higher, the arc has moved up as well.

I always positioned my pickups in divisibles of the scale length, but I've found that doesn't matter much... at least there is no right or wrong location, just different. On one of my single pickup guitars, I placed the pickup where it looked best!

[Steve A.]

... A 1/4" does make a difference, but it's just a little deeper or brighter...

I believe that a 1/4" at the bridge has a much bigger effect than 1/4" at the neck. Case in the point- try swapping the two coils of a split humbucker at the bridge. A very big difference.

So you like those strat-sized humbuckers? I've used a few of them and just feel that they are neither fish nor fowl. Then again the vast majority of the animal kingdom is neither fish nor fowl...

Steve Ahola

[David Schwab]

I believe that a 1/4" at the bridge has a much bigger effect than 1/4" at the neck. Case in the point- try swapping the two coils of a split humbucker at the bridge. A very big difference.

That makes sense if you consider how the harmonics get closer toward the bridge.

So you like those strat-sized humbuckers? I've used a few of them and just feel that they are neither fish nor fowl. Then again the vast majority of the animal kingdom is neither fish nor fowl...

Well I refuse to use single coils, can't stand the noise. So that leaves you with stacks or small humbuckers. Stacks sound like single coils, but what if you want a bit more oomph?

I've tried out a few of those JB Jr. and Little '59's, and they sounded just like humbuckers to me. I don't go for that dark humbucker tone, so they were just right.

But if you don't want to put a full size humbucker on a Strat, that's a way to do it. I'm never interested in getting the same old sounds everyone else gets, so I don't care if something doesn't sound like some vintage recording of whatever.

[lexluthier72]

reviving an old thread....If they are Gibson P90s, you most likely do not have to re-wire the leads to reverse the phase. I just did this mod, and flipped the coil over, and reversed the magnets, and voila. No need to re-wire. But, this is probably only the case for actual Gibson p90s.
-Erin