Can you wrap your head around this?

[daz]

I can't, but maybe someone here can. There are 2 tele wiring schemes at the bottom that i can't wrap my head around, especially the very bottom one which to me seems completely wacked. I can't even see how it could work as a volume control but when it comes to multi signal path things like this my brain goes into overload so maybe i'm missing something. Or is it indeed wrong to the point it wouldn't work? The 2nd from the bottom would likely be ok but i'm not sure how the TB would interact with the tone cap.

[Justin Thomas]

No, but I have a Tele and am willing to try them all out...
Thanks for the ideas! As long as they work with a 4-way switch...

Justin

[nickb]

The return wire to the pickup is missing - that can't help your understanding. I 've redrawn the last two - hopefully it's clearer now. BTW I think the name given to each topology is not helpful.




Edit: Also in the in forth case the 1nf cap + half of the tone control is shorted out. This I how I think they are supposed to be.

[daz]

The return wire to the pickup is missing - that can't help your understanding. I 've redrawn the last two - hopefully it's clearer now. BTW I think the name given to each topology is not helpful.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]40497[/ATTACH]

Edit: Also in the in forth case the 1nf cap + half of the tone control is shorted out. This I how I think they are supposed to be.

It doesn't matter that the pickup isn't drawn in, as long as the switch is connected to the volume pot input. Whats bothering me in the bottom one is the input to the volume from the switch he's using the output lug. Whats that about?

[nickb]

It doesn't matter that the pickup isn't drawn in, as long as the switch is connected to the volume pot input. Whats bothering me in the bottom one is the input to the volume from the switch he's using the output lug. Whats that about?

It's not that the pickup isn't drawn in, it that the pickup has (at least) two wires and only one is shown.

On the bottom one, imagine the volume pot is at the lowest setting so the wiper is connected to ground. In this case any signal from the pickup is shorted out so you get nothing out. If the wiper is at the top then all the pickup signal gets to the output. In between and the volume must vary between the extremes.

The tone control add highs in one position and removes them in the other.

There is a lot of interaction between all the controls in all these arrangements. The pickup has it's own impedance too making the overall effect quite complex.

[Steve A.]

I can't, but maybe someone here can. There are 2 tele wiring schemes at the bottom that i can't wrap my head around, especially the very bottom one which to me seems completely wacked. I can't even see how it could work as a volume control but when it comes to multi signal path things like this my brain goes into overload so maybe i'm missing something. Or is it indeed wrong to the point it wouldn't work? The 2nd from the bottom would likely be ok but i'm not sure how the TB would interact with the tone cap.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]40495[/ATTACH]

Let me get out my magnifying glass...



Steve Ahola

P.S. I use what they call "constant-resistance wiring" on some of my 2 pickup guitars to keep the 2 volume controls independent in the middle position (you can turn one of controls to 0 without muting the guitar output) but I do not see any advantage at all of using that on a tele with a single volume control.

What they call "progressive" might be a variation on the Fender "Greasebucket" tone circuit that I posted here recently... [No, it isn't- I just checked]

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t42544/

The one important wiring scheme that they miss is what is often called "50's wiring"- with the volume control wired normally but with the tone control connected to the input of the volume control, not the wiper. Or to put it another way with the tone control connected to the output of the selector switch and not to the input jack.

BTW whenever feasible I connect the tone control to the volume control with the tone cap not a jumper figuring that any noise picked up after the tone cap is not going to have much of an effect on the output signal.

P.P.S. Just because a website posts a really slick looking graphic doesn't mean that the wiring scheme makes any sense... I love the old hand-drawn schematics from Bill Lawrence!

And whenever a simple drawing doesn't make sense to me I will try redrawing the circuit so that it does make sense (like going from a layout drawing to a schematic.)

[daz]

It's not that the pickup isn't drawn in, it that the pickup has (at least) two wires and only one is shown.

Well, yeah but it;s not necessarily to even show the pickup wire. The only important thing is the common of the switch goes to the pot and it;s just assumed the pickups are wired in normally with their hots to the appropriate switch contact and their grounds to ground. None of that is necessary in the drawing is all i'm saying. Thats why whoever drew them didn't bother. As to the reversed in and out on the bottom drawing, if you ever wired uo a volume opot like that accidentally you'd know it doesn't work right. (ask me how i know) So i'm not sure how that could be right but again, i can't WMHAI.

[bbsailor]

Pot wiring can be done two ways.

Way 1: pickup wired to the outer lugs of the volume pot and the output is taken from the pot center lug. This is the traditional wiring.
Way 2: pickup is wired to one outer lug and the the center lug while the output taken from the other outer lug.

Why are these ways different?

Way 1 puts a constant load across the pickup or pickups (with a single volume control) but with a dual pickup guitar and two volume control guitar, when two pickups are selected, each volume control affects the volume of both pickups together. There is no individual control of pickup level control... no blending capability.
Way 2 puts a variable load across each individual pickup and allows blending of the pickups with each control affecting the volume of only the pickup connected to it. Thus, when two pickups are selected, you can blend each individual pickup to suite your preferred pickup sound blend.

Way 2 works very well with a "phase inversion", push/pull tone switch, that allow you invert the pickup phase and to blend the out of phase sound with about one tenth of a volume pot turn change to get a nice variable notch effect.

This wiring option works very well with a Telecaster type guitar (or any two pickup guitar) when a 4-position (Telecaster type) selector switch is used that adds the 'two pickups in series" setting to the traditional wiring. Just use a concentric 500K volume pot that allows individual control of each pickup.

Enjoy!

Joseph J. Rogowski

[Steve A.]

Pot wiring can be done two ways.
Way 1: pickup wired to the outer lugs of the volume pot and the output is taken from the pot center lug. This is the traditional wiring...

Way 1 puts a constant load across the pickup or pickups (with a single volume control) but with a dual pickup guitar and two volume control guitar, when two pickups are selected, each volume control affects the volume of both pickups together. There is no individual control of pickup level control... no blending capability.

Am I misreading this? With the traditional wiring of a Les Paul you have a wide range of blending available in the middle position but the two volume controls are interactive and when you turn one of the controls all the way down it will mute both pickups. I am fairly certain that Peter Green blended the two pickups on his otherwise stock LP (the one with the out of phase pickup) to get those really cool sounds in the mid to late 60's.

I do prefer the 2nd wiring scheme you mentioned because the two volume controls are independent and you can dial in any percentage of one and the other.

Way 2 works very well with a "phase inversion", push/pull tone switch, that allow you invert the pickup phase and to blend the out of phase sound with about one tenth of a volume pot turn change to get a nice variable notch effect.

This wiring option works very well with a Telecaster type guitar (or any two pickup guitar) when a 4-position (Telecaster type) selector switch is used that adds the 'two pickups in series" setting to the traditional wiring. Just use a concentric 500K volume pot that allows individual control of each pickup.

I agree with you completely on this! While a phase switch works well with a stock tele, it works even better with the series linkage on the Fender 4-way switch.

Can you post links to 250k and 500k dual concentric volume pots along with a set of knobs? For a tele I'd like the knurled chrome but for a LP I'd like something Les Paul-ish. I've searched in the past but have never found the pots along with the knobs...

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

P.S. Back in the mid-80's I made a custom harness for my tele with two volume controls and no tone control. A salesman in the local store (who left to go on tour with Greg Kihn) suggested that I hard-wire in a 0.022uF tone cap and a 270k or 510k resistor to simulate the effect of a tone control set to 10. It had a mini-toggle phase switch between the two pots.

It wasn't until the mid-90's that I learned about series linkages of single coil pickups from Dan Torres. I put a 6 position rotary selector switch in my LP in the late 70's but the series linkage of two hotrodded Gibson pickups was over the top- I think it might have been Alembic who was selling hot rod kits for humbuckers with ceramic magnets. That was back in the day when distortion- any kind of distortion was considered to be a welcome addition...

[Richard]

You can blend the volumes with the output taken from the center lug but if you go too low it will kill all the volume. The 50's wiring, in my understanding, puts the tone control on the output, at the wiper of a standard wired volume pot. Most Fenders have the tone connected to the pickup side of the volume pot. If the tone control is on the output of the volume pot in a Les Paul style wiring the both tone controls will affect the sound even as you roll of the volume on one pickup. If the tone is connected to the input (one end) of the volume when you roll that volume down the tone control will have a reduced effect. All of these schematics have the tone after the volume control (50's style) which I prefer for a single volume control guitar.

This guy has several videos showing different parts of guitar wiring.
Videos

[bbsailor]

Am I misreading this? With the traditional wiring of a Les Paul you have a wide range of blending available in the middle position but the two volume controls are interactive and when you turn one of the controls all the way down it will mute both pickups. I am fairly certain that Peter Green blended the two pickups on his otherwise stock LP (the one with the out of phase pickup) to get those really cool sounds in the mid to late 60's.

I do prefer the 2nd wiring scheme you mentioned because the two volume controls are independent and you can dial in any percentage of one and the other.



I agree with you completely on this! While a phase switch works well with a stock tele, it works even better with the series linkage on the Fender 4-way switch.

Can you post links to 250k and 500k dual concentric volume pots along with a set of knobs? For a tele I'd like the knurled chrome but for a LP I'd like something Les Paul-ish. I've searched in the past but have never found the pots along with the knobs...

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

P.S. Back in the mid-80's I made a custom harness for my tele with two volume controls and no tone control. A salesman in the local store (who left to go on tour with Greg Kihn) suggested that I hard-wire in a 0.022uF tone cap and a 270k or 510k resistor to simulate the effect of a tone control set to 10. It had a mini-toggle phase switch between the two pots.

It wasn't until the mid-90's that I learned about series linkages of single coil pickups from Dan Torres. I put a 6 position rotary selector switch in my LP in the late 70's but the series linkage of two hotrodded Gibson pickups was over the top- I think it might have been Alembic who was selling hot rod kits for humbuckers with ceramic magnets. That was back in the day when distortion- any kind of distortion was considered to be a welcome addition...

Steve,

You can use a stacked 500K concentric pot like this : https://www.allparts.com/EP-4486-000...ot_p_1442.html. If you are using 2 humbucker pickups, look for a stacked concentric 1M ohm set of pots. Fender bass guitars use this type of pot wiring to allow blending of their pickups.

Joseph J. Rogowski