Pickup height on a new SG

[seaker]

Hello all-
I have a 2 year old Gibson Sg bought new at GC. I am playing around with aspects of the setup to see how things change the feel and to find the sweet spot for myself.

Looking at the specs for the pickup height most sources, including Gibson say the neck pickup should be 3/32 pole piece to string and the bridge 2/32 ( 1/16th) when fretted at the 22nd fret.

OK... so this works out for the neck pickup fine. This poses problems with the bridge pickup. Are we talking about measuring from the pole piece screws? or the slugs? or the leading edge of the pickup?

At the bridge pickup the screws are towards the bridge or rear.... the slug ends are at the leading edge. standard arangement. If it is the screws there is no way I can crank it up that high. The leading edge of the bridge pickup contacts the strings long before I am even close.. and the pickup gets in the way of my playing before that.

I know someone knows the answer to this simple question...

TIA
/Justin

[Paleo Pete]

Sounds like something is wrong, I've always understood that to mean the measurement between the pole pieces (slugs you guys sometimes call them) and strings.

If the leading edge of the pickup touches the strings at all, the pickup must not be flat, or parallel to the guitar body. If it sits at an angle, then the edge may touch, but when the pickup sits parallel nothing should touch at all.

I usually find humbuckers hotter than my strat and I want them all close to the same volume level, so my humbuckers usually end up further away than 1/16", I think about 1/8" instead. Closer adjustments also let the strings hit from time to time, and at 1/8" hotter pickups will still be a bit louder than a strat with single coils.

Check your guitar a bit closer, the pickup should not sit at an angle, but flat, parallel to the guitar body. Then it should work at 1/16" from the strings, but I usually prefer them not that close. I wish I could get my strat that close though, at 1/8" it's at the end of its screw travel. I always measure from the magnetic pole pieces, they should be the highest point on the pickup, most protrude at least 1/16", maybe a bit less with your humbuckers, but they should still be the highest point. If the leading edge, not the pole pieces, are touching, something is out of kilter.

[seaker]

the pickups are parallel to the body. i think the issue is neck angle and resulting string height. or i'm just measuring it wrong....

the strings are at a steeper angle at the bridge pickup than the neck pickup.

humbuckers have 2 coils. 1 coil has screws the other has slugs. both are pole pieces, the screws just make the one side adjustable. at the neck pickup, the coil with screws is toward the neck or leading edge of the pickup. at the bridge pickup the screws are in the coil closest to the bridge and the slugs are at the leading edge. I haven't seen in any spec where they specify which side they measure for distance to strings. I assumed it was the screw side which everyone seems to call the polepiece. if it is just the ' front' set of pole pieces - whether they be screws or slugs - you measure from, then all is well.

i don't think there is anything fundamentaly wrong with the axe, just with me ;-] teaching myself how to set it up has been interesting and if i'd known then ( when i bought it) what i know now, i would have checked these kind of things out more carefully and compared more guitars in the store.

[Liam]

How high do you have the action? The higher the action the more pickup clearance you need.

Most people run humbuckers a little further away from the strings than Gibson suggest IME. Like Pete I adjust to about 1/8" at the bridge to start with. (Sounds better, feels better, strings don't hit pickups so easy). But just try different heights and see what you like.

Next, with just the bridge pickup switched on, plug into an amp and adjust the 2 height screws until all strings have a similar volume when you strum an open chord. You normally have to trim it in favour of the low E string.

Once you've done that switch to the neck pickup and adjust until it has similar volume to the bridge pickup. Then set the 2 neck pickup mounting screws so that all strings have similar volume. You often have to trim this one in favour of the high E string.

Finally recheck that both pickups have similar outputs, and reset if necessary.

Takes 10 minutes, but is infinitely better than just setting the height. You'll love your guitar a whole lot more.

Liam

P.S. My first Les Paul, I set as Gibson suggested, and the neck pickup turned into an extra fret. Measurement is to the nearest polepieces I guess - could be screws, could be slugs, just don't take it too seriously and use your ears to decide. This is more art than science, and there are very few rules!

[seaker]

the action is a bit high right now because i'm still trying to find my sweet spot... transitioning from mostly acoustic playing. the reason i was concerned about setting it to a specific height spec is that i wanted to start with it 'right' before i messed around with things.

so the action will probably change again soon

soooo i'll stop worrying about 'correct' height and do it by ear

thanks all

[David Schwab]

It sounds like your pickup is leaning over. Both coils should be parallel to the strings.

This is one of the problems with having only two screws on the mounting ring.

[seaker]

P.S. My first Les Paul, I set as Gibson suggested, and the neck pickup turned into an extra fret.

this exactly the problem i have.... so the answer is probably measure from closest point to string ie slug/front side in bridge pup.

thanks everyone for responses
/justin

[David Schwab]

You may need to unscrew the pickup ring and give the pickup's wire a tug to get some slack.

You shouldn't have one coil closer to the strings than the other! Not only does that affect how high the pickup can be raised, it won't sound right with one coil closer, nor will it sound right too far from the strings.

Sometimes stuffing some foam rubber under the pickup will keep it straight.

[Liam]

I have kind of assumed we're talking SG Special here. The pickups tend to rest parallel to the scratchplate, but the strings are raised at the bridge end, so they are not generally parallel to the pickups.

You shouldn't have one coil closer to the strings than the other! Not only does that affect how high the pickup can be raised, it won't sound right with one coil closer, nor will it sound right too far from the strings.

WADR, there's no such thing as a "right" sound. Sometimes having more signal from one coil than the other can have a pleasant effect (hence burstbuckers and so on.) By all means experiment, but "it wont sound right too far from the strings" doesn't work for me. I prefer the sound "too far from the strings". Don't measure, plug in adjust, listen. You can measure after.

[seaker]

[QUOTE=Liam;40389]I have kind of assumed we're talking SG Special here. The pickups tend to rest parallel to the scratchplate, but the strings are raised at the bridge end, so they are not generally parallel to the pickups.

exactly... so i'm not crazy after all....

[David Schwab]

I have kind of assumed we're talking SG Special here. The pickups tend to rest parallel to the scratchplate, but the strings are raised at the bridge end, so they are not generally parallel to the pickups.

And that's why most guitars use pickup rings. The rings for guitars with neck angles are also angled. Take a Les Paul for example.

The OP posed a question about why he couldn't get his pickups as close the proposed optimal position. The answer to the question is because the pickup is not parallel to the strings.

This is really a matter of a poor design which has been around for a long time. Other guitar makers have added more adjustment screws to the baseplat eto enable the pickup to be properly angled.

Sure, you can purposely angle you pickups, and you can also move them as far from the strings as you wish. But both things will make the pickup less efficient.

And angling the pickup is not the same as having each coil wound differently.

[Liam]

The OP posed a question about why he couldn't get his pickups as close the proposed optimal position. The answer to the question is because the pickup is not parallel to the strings.

What he actually said was that he was loking for a "sweet spot" in pickup position. My contention (having worked on a few SG Specials) was that it might be further away from the strings than he's looking, and might not require stuffing foam rubber under the pickup.

This is really a matter of a poor design which has been around for a long time. Other guitar makers have added more adjustment screws to the baseplat eto enable the pickup to be properly angled.

Sure, you can purposely angle you pickups, and you can also move them as far from the strings as you wish. But both things will make the pickup less efficient.

I'm not bothered about efficiency, I'm only bothered about what sounds good. SG Specials can sound very good without worrying too much about pickup angle. I'll be honest, I've never spent much time worrying about pickup angle. Maybe I should have. Have you had particularly good results by changing the angle of the pickups on SG Specials?

And angling the pickup is not the same as having each coil wound differently.

I was just trying to present an example where imbalance between coils provides a pleasing effect. Iwas also trying to open the OP's mind to the idea that music is about trying things and seeing what works - more art than science. Tilting a pickup and listening can generally be done by hand whilst plugged in. Pickup height involves a screwdriver, but should also be done whilst plugged in IMO.

My belief is that it's more important to use your ears than position pickups where someone says they ought to be. If it turns out to be parallel and where Gibson declare maximum efficiency, then so be it, but in my experience (I've done quite a bit of this) it is generally better to find your own way.

I'm not trying to get "one up" on you David, but I feel you're talking more like a technician than a musician.

Liam

[David Schwab]

I'm not trying to get "one up" on you David, but I feel you're talking more like a technician than a musician.

Well I was talking as a guitar technician. I'm also a visual artist, and I appreciate good design. My partner at SGD is also an industrial designer. Our personal opinion is a lot of this stuff is antiquated, and some of it wasn't a great design from a functional point of view in the first place.

The whole point that Gibson might keep making the pickup mounts the same way is because people are resistant to change, even if it's better. And mounting pickups like this on the pickguard is just a way to save money by not having to use more parts.

I like SG's.. but there's room for improvement, such as with the neck joint.

As a luthier, I get tired of having to use replacement parts meant for just two brands of guitars, as if that's the only way to do things. You frequently end up with a compromise, and no room for innovation. For instance, try doing something new with Jazz Bass pickups. There's not much room in there! it's just the same thing regurgitated over and over.

I put soapbars on all my basses because it gave me room to try different pickups, and I like the fact that the pickup is solidly screwed to the wood.

But take a look at something like an EMG-35. Here we had a new design that didn't have to fit into any legacy footprint. Once again we have an issue with two mounting screws. You end up with either a wobbly pickup, or one that is not angled parallel to the strings.

It would have been very simple to add a third screw, just as Bartolini and others have done with that form factor.

Now lets look at Carvin humbuckers. They have three screws. It doesn't detract from the "usual" look of the pickup, and now you can angle it and it wont wobble.

I don't see where making excuses for Gibson's poor design makes someone more of a musician than a technician. And this is the guitar tech forum...

I wasn't trying to change anyone's opinion about how pickups should be angled or positioned... this is my opinion, and how I like my instruments set up. In my experience I have always liked the tone better when pickups are close to the strings. But not too close, just as not too far. And it all depends on the pickup design.

[Liam]

Your comments are all quite fair, I was maybe a bit more opinionated than I should have been.

Of course the Telecaster has more than adequate bridge pickup adjustment, especially considering it's single coil.

I don't see where making excuses for Gibson's poor design makes someone more of a musician than a technician.

I wasn't making excuses. It's easy to criticise the humbucker mounting, but you've got to admit that it has been quite successful. It was where you said,

You shouldn't have one coil closer to the strings than the other! Not only does that affect how high the pickup can be raised, it won't sound right with one coil closer, nor will it sound right too far from the strings.

that alarm bells started ringing. A bit like saying, "George, you shouldn't put the guitar so close to the amp, it won't sound right, and you could cause feedback." Just try it, see what happens....

I believe I know why I prefer humbucking pickups further away than recommended, and can explain if anyone's in the remotest interested.

But I accept your points David - in fairness to Gibson, the original SG had pickup mounting rings angled to the strings. I believe you have to buy a custom shop reissue to avoid the scratchplate mounted pickups nowadays.

[David Schwab]

Your comments are all quite fair, I was maybe a bit more opinionated than I should have been.

We are all opinionated. You can only speak your opinion, unless we are stating something considered a fact, and that in itself is often someone's opinion!

Of course the Telecaster has more than adequate bridge pickup adjustment, especially considering it's single coil.

That's a great bridge and pickup setup. it was probably over designed, as it was the only pickup on the guitar, and the fact its on a metal plate, with a metal plate under the pickup, and the ashtray cover over the bridge.. that was all for shielding purposes. Back then a lot of guitar makers thought you needed a large ground plane for an electric guitar, which is why some early models had metal pickguards.

I think they were just overly concerned. As Leo and company made more guitars they realized they didn't need to do all that.

I wasn't making excuses. It's easy to criticise the humbucker mounting, but you've got to admit that it has been quite successful.

I think successful is the wrong word to use. It works, so it accomplished an aim. That is the definition of successful. as well as popularity. But what competition did that mounting system have? Well it didn't have any! It works OK if you have covers on the pickups, and the rings are angled, and they fit snugly. That's how it was designed. But some parts should have been replaced a long time ago. The L shaped legs are often too long, and require extra body routing. This was probably done so they could use longer springs, to make the pickup more rigid.

It was where you said, that alarm bells started ringing. A bit like saying, "George, you shouldn't put the guitar so close to the amp, it won't sound right, and you could cause feedback." Just try it, see what happens....

It's not like that at all... this isn't new stuff. It's all been done before. I just turned 50... people have been trying weird things to guitars as long as I've been alive, if not longer!

I believe I know why I prefer humbucking pickups further away than recommended, and can explain if anyone's in the remotest interested.

The farther the pickup is from the strings, the weaker the output. It actually drops off at the square of the distance. If you have overwound pickups, that might give you a somewhat clearer tone, or even less low end.

But as you drop the output of the guitar, you have to compensate by turning up your amp, and that potentially increases the noise level.

But I accept your points David - in fairness to Gibson, the original SG had pickup mounting rings angled to the strings. I believe you have to buy a custom shop reissue to avoid the scratchplate mounted pickups nowadays.

I think the models with the wide pickguards had P-90's on them originally. That probably works better with P-90's, since they are single coil, and rather wide.

I just find when the pickup is angled away from the strings, it's weaker sounding, since one coil is not adding as much to the signal.