My client describes the strings as being stiff

[Wrnchbndr]

The guitar is an American made Fender standard telecaster with a lacquered maple fretboard. The client is a senior (read older and experienced) professional musician and probably has at least a dozen other telecasters. His string preference is always the same. I've seen a post like this go south on other forums talking about some teles and strats having stiffer strings than others. The geometry is exactly the same on each and in this case, the guitar plays flawlessly with no tuning stability issues or any other problems.

My thought is that the fretboard is causing a sort of friction as a fretted note is bent across. Because the tip of the finger is being pulled as the note is bent, the skin is pulled in such a manner that it underminds the hold that the player has on the string and to achieve his step and a half or two-step bend he has to work harder. The client is a blues player and half of the time is bending notes. The lacquer on the neck is what came from the factory. I was thinking of a light coat of satin or even using a light coat of lacquer sanding sealer.

Thoughts???

[Sweetfinger]

The geometry is exactly the same on each

Same neck profile? Same radius, both fingerboard, and frets(they aren't necessarily the same). Same tuning machine post height? Same bridge(thru body or top load)? Same fretwire size? Same hole depth on string ferrules(i.e. length of string from ball end to break point on saddles)? Are the frets perfectly crowned, flatted, dull, mirror polished?
These will make a bit of difference. Rarely do you find two guitars with the exact same geometry. They differ in ways that seem insignifigant, but can very noticeably affect the playing feel.

Check the amount of deformation on a bend - Have the customer do a full step bend on the B string at the 12th fret on the loose guitar. Measure how many cents one of the non-bent strings goes flat. Do the same to the stiff guitar. Difference? Does the guitar feel similar just fretting WITHOUT bends? If it ends up being a case of the neck being very rigid, he'll have to go down in string size, or go to a different core/wrap ratio.

It may just turn out to be sticky lacquer. Let us know.

[Chuck H]

Can't say exactly why, but some laquered maple finger boards do feel stiffer. Some things have been metioned in the way of minor differences like tuning peg hieght, saddle angle, etc. But none of that is relative to string tention on the hands. And if the scale length is the same and the strings and tuning are the same, then the tension is the same, period.

Laquered maple fingerboards are colder on the fingers (cold, stiff, ridgid, sometimes used synonymously) they also sound stiffer (tighter tone, bright attack and less sustain, sounds ridgid and cold). I know it seems crazy, but it's a mental illusion our brains play on us.

What has worked for me in the past is to strip all the laquer off the neck and fingerboard and apply a couple of coats of tung oil giving the whole thing a warmer and more natural feel. Don't worry about popping frets. Just be careful not to soak the fingerboard too long with the stripper. I don't know if it really makes a difference, I've never lost a fret. Just seems like good sense.

The fingerboard won't discolor any faster than it would with the laquer finish because the tung oil penetrates a small amount into the woods surface. Do not use steel wool under any circumstances on maple. Residue shows gray in the wood pores, especially on the fingerboard where the frets contribute more metal.

Chuck

[PlayItAll]

And if the scale length is the same and the strings and tuning are the same, then the tension is the same, period.

I'm not so sure about this...

Some Les Paul players wrap the strings around the stop tailpiece - it makes the overall length of the string longer and therefore a tiny bit slinkier. After all, the string does slide through the nut and over the bridge unless you have a locking system.

Obviously, scale length and overall string length are different things, so if we make the overall length of a string greater, but keep the pitch of that string when played open (representing scale length) the same, won't the tension of the string at pitch change and therefore the feel?

Or you could just put a set of .008's on it! :-)

Good luck and let us know what works.
Eddie

[Sweetfinger]

if the scale length is the same and the strings and tuning are the same, then the tension is the same, period.
Chuck

Yes, UNTIL you start to bend a string. If the neck is spongy and elastic, it will bend forward to try and keep the string tension the same, which means that the bend happens over a wider range and in a slightly different band than on a neck that is quite rigid. More dramatically, take a Strat with the two-point trem. Set the trem spring claw so that the base of the trem is flat to the body, but with JUST enough counterbalancing tension that the trem will pull up from the body if a string is bent. do full step bends and have a pal alternately let the trem pull up, and hold the trem down to the body. In order to complete the bend, you're raising the string tension the same amount both ways. That's basic physics, but you're subtly altering the range and place in which the change occurs. That's guitar ergonomics, or feel, or whatever 'greasy' term you like.

[Chuck H]

"Obviously, scale length and overall string length are different things, so if we make the overall length of a string greater, but keep the pitch of that string when played open (representing scale length) the same, won't the tension of the string at pitch change and therefore the feel?"

The truth is that the scale length is the only thing that matters because that is the distance over which the strings tension will produce a specific pitch at a specific tension. You can extend the strings to the other end of the street beyond the bridge saddles (if you had long enough strings) and it would make no difference in the tension at pitch over the fingerboard. Thats why string MFGs sometimes publish fixed figures for string tension at pitch. It's a concrete factual figure. Well, kinda. There IS a difference between a 24 3/4 scale (Les Paul) and a 25 1/2 scale (Strat). But that is scale length.

What WILL change when wrapping the strings around the tailpiece is the string angle over the saddle (provided the tailpiece adjusment is not changed). This can be significant because it changes the downward tension on the saddle and can effect sustain. But the tension on the hands will remain the same. If you still disagree with me, just sit and meditate for awhile and groove on the concept. It will come to you.

"If the neck is spongy and elastic, it will bend forward to try and keep the string tension the same, which means that the bend happens over a wider range and in a slightly different band than on a neck that is quite rigid."

I did only mention a couple of my personal observations about the feel of neck constuction differences. This is certainly another one, and significant. BUT, the tension will still be the same. You will need to bend the string further though to reach that tension. Same thing with the shifting trem. I ALWAYS keep mine tight to the body so that there is no shift with a whole step bend on the low E string for that reason.

"That's guitar ergonomics, or feel, or whatever 'greasy' term you like."

I love greasy.

Chuck

[PlayItAll]

Well, I'll admit that the physics is a little beyond me, but here's a little test that might help with this guy's guitar:

Pluck the high "E" string above the nut - between the nut and the tuning post - and bend that string by fretting at the 5th fret and bending up a whole step or so. You should hear the pitch of the string above the nut go up as you bend the string. If it doesn't, it's binding at the nut which will make the string feel a little bit stiffer. This is what I was getting at earlier. The strings, unless you have a locking nut and or bridge, will stretch above the nut and below the bridge. At least, they should. That's why a jazz box with heavy gauge ropes and a trapeze tailpiece aren't that bad to play feel wise. There is a lot of string length from the bridge to the end of the tailpiece.

I, too, love greasy! :-)
Eddie

[Wrnchbndr]

Hey folks, well the saga is over. This client is a good one and I go 130% for him on every guitar he brings me because for every guitar I get from him I get five from his groupies and none of it is nickle and dime stuff. What I ended up doing was scrubbing the entire neck front and back with a mild detergent and then scrubbing it again with naptha. I ran a polishing wheel over the frets for a second time and just set up the guitar again from scratch. I think the setup is a tiny bit better but its hard to tell because the guitar was a sweetheart telecaster to begin with. It does have a chunkier neck like a reissue and I really think that the new factory gloss is main part of the problem. I just told the client that I've done all that I can and anything left is just the nature of the guitar. The guitar is more tolerent of lower action than most telecasters and he's okay with it. I need to remember that I'm not always going to generate gods gift to guitars from every pretty tele that comes walking through the door. If he still has issues after a few weeks we're going to dull the finish or apply a satin finish.

I still stand by my view on stiffness among guitar models but I need to clarify that I only am talking about string tension and the tension needed to achieve pitch changes during bends. The only real difference could possibly be the rigidity of the neck and the neck to body joint. On a strat, you'd also have the trem springs to consider. Everything else is a matter of perception from the player and not truely an issue of string tension. The player's hands tell lies and the slightest tiny change of any aspect of the neck can result in a totally different feel but from experience I know that what the player is saying is not always what is happening. As far as nuts and saddles, a well tweeked guitar will have no restrictive issues due to strings not flowing through either. If there was any restriction, there would be tuning stability issue after the bend. String wrapping on the tuner posts is an eliminated issue because I employ a method that yields conistent results of 2 to 2.5 wraps on every post unless the guitar has lockers. I use the same brand of string in a 10/46 set by default unless the client requests something else.
On the issue of scale length vs overall length, well, I don't have the physics neatly tucked into my brainbox yet because I don't yet fully comprehend all of the variables. My head keeps wanting to look at string tension as cumulative but I think this is wrong and I can prove it in a model. I do understand the string tension vs pitch, scale length, and string gauge.

[Sweetfinger]

I need to remember that I'm not always going to generate gods gift to guitars from every pretty tele that comes walking through the door....
...Everything else is a matter of perception from the player and not truely an issue of string tension. The player's hands tell lies and the slightest tiny change of any aspect of the neck can result in a totally different feel but from experience I know that what the player is saying is not always what is happening.

Yup. Trying to figure out what a player is trying to communicate about feel is sometimes like a Veterinarian trying to diagnose a sick, listless dog.

[PlayItAll]

Cool,

Sounds like what you did helped him out.

Love those teles. Someday, I'll have one.

[Satamax]

Well, you could try dulling the lacquer on the neck surface with 0000 steel wool, and use a litle "fast fret" to see what it does.

For example, i find rosewood boards harder to do bends onto, compared to ebony. And lacquered boards are even worse in my book. The strings must tend to dig into the wood or lacquer, and that restrain the ability of the string to slide onto the board.

[Wrnchbndr]

I've tried fast fret and fret-eez before with this client with negative results. What happens with these products is that the slick-ness of the product gets on his finger tips and about the same thing happens with an inability to hold the string under the finger while bending notes. This was part of my diagnosis thought process. He says that the guitar is now playing better and if he continues to be annoyed with it we'll try a thin coat of satin finish. I'm thinking that a shot of lacquer sanding sealer may be a decent alternative since it has a type of lubricant designed to assist sanding. I have a number of Squires in my shop that I use for evil experiments. I might try it out on one of these and let my client test drive one. This problem is certainly specific to this client yet I can understand what he's talking about. This is the second guitar that he's had this problem with. Upon finishing one of these guitars, I'll let a couple of the guitar teachers in the shop play it and I'll ask them for their opinions. Its not until I mention the specific issue that they'll maybe notice what my client is describing. Its subtle but I believe its due to the type of skin the guy has on his finger tips -- maybe a strength issue or maybe even on onset of arthritis.

[Chuck H]

"This is the second guitar that he's had this problem with."

Hmmm.

Did both guitars have a gloss finished fingerboard? Are the guitars he likes a 24 3/4 scale and the ones he doesn't 25 1/2?

Also, What about the nut hieght adjustment. I like a low nut, but if it's too low, even if it doesn't buzz, fretting strings from an open state IS stiffer because the string is contacting the "rear" fret prior to the target fret. It makes it a little stiffer to hold the string snugly on the target fret because there is a shorter "lever" angle.

If it's too high, even if the guitar can still be adjusted low at the 12th fret, holding open chords can feel very stiff.

I think carefull nut hieght adjustment is an often overlooked factor in action and feel. It can be the difference between bad and acceptable or good and great.

Chuck

[Steve A.]

Yup. Trying to figure out what a player is trying to communicate about feel is sometimes like a Veterinarian trying to diagnose a sick, listless dog.

And they always get upset if you feel their nose to see if it is cold!

Steve Ahola

[socalscott]

Slight shimming(thinner than biz card) just at the forward screws of the neck/body joint can reduce this fenomena. Some kind of leverage relation to the saddles.
Just like string angle up to the saddle, i.e. stop tailpiece string wrap.