Help I'm stumped on this one

[cwmont]

I have a 2003 P-bass. Sunset Orange with Maple neck. When playing on the low E, the A note sounds kind of dead. The note is there but I'm just not getting the kind of sustain I'm used to with a P-bass. Here's how it's set up.

Neck is almost dead flat with just a small amount of relief. I run my action pretty low. I have a light touch so I can get by with low action and some minor buzzing as long it's clean through an amp. Using Rotosound RS66L strung through body. I had the frets levelled, dressed, and polished and a set up done when I got the bass. All the other strings played on or around the 5th fret sound good and the bass sounds great with no buzz outs anywhere on the neck.

I play finger style right over the PU and pick just behind the PU. I was thinking it was PU adjustment but it seems to have no effect. The A note still sounds somewhat dead. If I move my finger position to in front of the pickup or behind, the A note sounds pretty good.

I'm still thinking it's something with the PU height. At first I thought it might be a bad string, but the open E rings nice and fat. Maybe it's just a quirk with this particular bass?

Any ideas?

[David Schwab]

That's very odd. has it always been this way? Or did something change?

My only ideas are a bad string, even if it sounds good open, or the pickup is too close to the string on that side.

A third thing would be the note choking off because there is a slight back bow or uneven fret, but that doesn't make sense due to it changing from where you pluck the string.

I also set my neck with no relief, but I pluck fairly hard.

I'm guessing it's a bad string though. I had a bad low E once that made sounds like you were pressing your finder on it over a harmonic node... everything was off sounding.

[cwmont]

That's very odd. has it always been this way? Or did something change?

My only ideas are a bad string, even if it sounds good open, or the pickup is too close to the string on that side.

A third thing would be the note choking off because there is a slight back bow or uneven fret, but that doesn't make sense due to it changing from where you pluck the string.

I also set my neck with no relief, but I pluck fairly hard.

I'm guessing it's a bad string though. I had a bad low E once that made sounds like you were pressing your finder on it over a harmonic node... everything was off sounding.

I can't really say if it was always this way. I got the bass off CL. There was no amp where I picked up the bass so I couldn't give it a proper run through. I picked it up and took it directly over to the shop to have the set up done. I haven't played it much till lately so I guess that's why I just now noticed it.

I also like to run the neck dead flat with no relief when possible and use the bridge and or neck shims to dial it in. I can't even play a new Fender out of the box cause they put so much relief in the neck. I sometimes take a screwdriver and allen wrench in with me so I can run the neck flat and play the thing to see if I even want to buy it. Guitar Center is THE worst. They just take it out of the box and hang it up. Hell, half the time they don't even bother to tune it up.

I just put just a tad more relief on the neck and lowered the pickup fairly low. I'll let her sit tonight and give it another try tomorrow.

It could be a bad string and although RotoSounds have been decent for me over the years, you can get a bad string now and then. I never considered checking the string as it's a new set. Now that I think about it, the string might be bad. I mean when you fret you're changing the speaking length of the string. If the weak area is right over or very close to the PU, it might sound dead.

I'll post if it works out.

Thanks

[black_labb]

so from your description, its playing the 5th fret only? i dont know much about it, but maybe the fret isnt properly seated on the low side, and dullening the tone. or even some gunk on the string there.

i have a bad low E string on a guitar but that is the whole string. im letting my girlfriend learn on it so it doesnt matter to me, but everytime i play it it bugs me.

[cwmont]

so from your description, its playing the 5th fret only? i dont know much about it, but maybe the fret isnt properly seated on the low side, and dullening the tone. or even some gunk on the string there.

i have a bad low E string on a guitar but that is the whole string. im letting my girlfriend learn on it so it doesnt matter to me, but everytime i play it it bugs me.

It's strange alright. It's only on the low E and only at the 5th fret. I still think David is on the right track that it's just a bad string.

If after I try the things I mentioned with the neck relief, PU and toss on a new E string and it's still acting up, I'm going to take a good look at the 5th and 6th frets on the low side of the neck. Most of the time it always turns out to be the most simple thing that's causing the problem.

[Sweetfinger]

Congratulations! You have found the dead spot! From your description of the problem, I think you have the unfortunate luck to have a dead spot right at your A. What is happening is that at that particular position on the fingerboard, your bass resonates too well with the string. All the energy in the string is quickly transferred to the body of the bass and the result is that the string just craps out on that particular note, almost like it was being muted- just makes a sort of 'thunk' sound.
How can you be sure? Change the string, if the problem doesn't go away, glue down the 5th fret. If your fret is already seated well, you are going to have to change the fundamental resonant frequency of your bass. The easiest and most elegant method is to install a 'Fathead' which is a big brass plate that installs on the back of the headstock.
Less appealing options are:
Change tuning machines to much lighter or much heavier ones.
Add mass to the headstock by clamping a weight to it.
Remove mass from the headstock by chopping it down(not recommended)
Changing out the neck to one without the problem. (composite necks are less prone to dead spots)

You can temporarily check to see if a fathead will fix the problem by putting a 'C' clamp with a couple chunks of felt onto the headstock. Realize also that these 'cures' will in some cases just move the dead spot around to other notes. Good Luck!

[Mark Hammer]

There are cases where a headstock weight like the "Fathead" can address sustain/resonance problems, and cases where it can't. It you wanted a quick and dirty way to find out, play your bass while pushing the headstock against something like a door jam so thatthe energy from the neckl will transfer to the doorjam. The headstock will "borrow" the mass of the doorjam. If the sustain improves, then mass may be an appropriate fix. If not, then save your money for something else.

[David Schwab]

Rotosounds were the strings I was using when I got the bad string! I had it happen on a set of Sound City strings too (anyone remember those?) I had stopped using Rotos at the time (mid 70's) because the quality had gotten inconsistent. I was also using Pacato strings at the time. I just put a set of nickel Swingbass on my bass last week. I hadn't used them in years.

All the basses at GC are crap. I was trying out some Markbass amps, and since I can't bring my own bass in, I had to settle for the better of two awful Jazz basses, a Geddy and something else. The strings were a half mile over the neck, and uneven in hight, knobs were missing, etc. And I don't even like Jazz basses.

I use two truss rods in my necks. Sometimes I have to increase the relief lightly on the low side. I haven't see dead spots on the low E. Usually it's around the 7th fret on the G string. I put carbon graphite rods in my necks to stop that from happening... and I also have phenolic fingerboards on my basses. Not a single dead or uneven note anywhere!

My experience with brand new Fenders is that the fretwork is often bad. You might have an uneven fret which is being exasperated by the straight neck. I had one customer that wanted the lowest possible action on his brand new US Strat. Leveling the frets was an improvement, but not enough for him, so I ended up removing all the frets and leveling the fingerboard, which was not flat at all. I got the strings so low he wanted me to raise them up a bit! The bass necks are hit-or-miss. I've seen some good ones, and some really bad ones too.

Does raising the string stop the dead note? Raise it up some ridiculous amount and see. If that fixes it, check for uneven frets. If the frets aren't too bad, try adding a smige of relief.

I can't really say if it was always this way. I got the bass off CL. There was no amp where I picked up the bass so I couldn't give it a proper run through. I picked it up and took it directly over to the shop to have the set up done. I haven't played it much till lately so I guess that's why I just now noticed it.

I also like to run the neck dead flat with no relief when possible and use the bridge and or neck shims to dial it in. I can't even play a new Fender out of the box cause they put so much relief in the neck. I sometimes take a screwdriver and allen wrench in with me so I can run the neck flat and play the thing to see if I even want to buy it. Guitar Center is THE worst. They just take it out of the box and hang it up. Hell, half the time they don't even bother to tune it up.

I just put just a tad more relief on the neck and lowered the pickup fairly low. I'll let her sit tonight and give it another try tomorrow.

It could be a bad string and although RotoSounds have been decent for me over the years, you can get a bad string now and then. I never considered checking the string as it's a new set. Now that I think about it, the string might be bad. I mean when you fret you're changing the speaking length of the string. If the weak area is right over or very close to the PU, it might sound dead.

I'll post if it works out.

Thanks

[cwmont]

Congratulations! You have found the dead spot! From your description of the problem, I think you have the unfortunate luck to have a dead spot right at your A. What is happening is that at that particular position on the fingerboard, your bass resonates too well with the string. All the energy in the string is quickly transferred to the body of the bass and the result is that the string just craps out on that particular note, almost like it was being muted- just makes a sort of 'thunk' sound.
How can you be sure? Change the string, if the problem doesn't go away, glue down the 5th fret. If your fret is already seated well, you are going to have to change the fundamental resonant frequency of your bass. The easiest and most elegant method is to install a 'Fathead' which is a big brass plate that installs on the back of the headstock.
Less appealing options are:
Change tuning machines to much lighter or much heavier ones.
Add mass to the headstock by clamping a weight to it.
Remove mass from the headstock by chopping it down(not recommended)
Changing out the neck to one without the problem. (composite necks are less prone to dead spots)

You can temporarily check to see if a fathead will fix the problem by putting a 'C' clamp with a couple chunks of felt onto the headstock. Realize also that these 'cures' will in some cases just move the dead spot around to other notes. Good Luck!

Sounds very much like what is going on. The note is not completely dead just weak and dies off quick. I've heard of the infamous "dead spot", but in the upteen basses I've owned over the years have never encountered the problem. It seems that these mostly occur on the G string around the 5th - 7th frets, but I imagine you could get a dead spot anywhere on the neck. I'll try the suggestions but if it turns out to be a dead spot in what I consider to be the "heart" of the neck.....

I picked up the 03 P for a decent price. The person selling it wasn't even a player. It was his roomate's and he left it and an acoustic guitar with the guy to help pay his share of the rent when he left town. The guy based his pricing according to other P basses on CL at the time. I explained that I had no way to test it and verify if the thing even worked so I offered him less than he was asking. So I could swap out the neck if I need to but why bother. Figure 300.00 plus for a nice neck with a setup. I can get another P for about the same. I'll probably just let the next guy worry about it and look for another. It's not as if P basses are in short supply.

[cwmont]

There are cases where a headstock weight like the "Fathead" can address sustain/resonance problems, and cases where it can't. It you wanted a quick and dirty way to find out, play your bass while pushing the headstock against something like a door jam so thatthe energy from the neckl will transfer to the doorjam. The headstock will "borrow" the mass of the doorjam. If the sustain improves, then mass may be an appropriate fix. If not, then save your money for something else.

Very good suggestion. I'm going to try this tonight first thing and proceed from there

[cwmont]

Rotosounds were the strings I was using when I got the bad string! I had it happen on a set of Sound City strings too (anyone remember those?) I had stopped using Rotos at the time (mid 70's) because the quality had gotten inconsistent. I was also using Pacato strings at the time. I just put a set of nickel Swingbass on my bass last week. I hadn't used them in years.

All the basses at GC are crap. I was trying out some Markbass amps, and since I can't bring my own bass in, I had to settle for the better of two awful Jazz basses, a Geddy and something else. The strings were a half mile over the neck, and uneven in hight, knobs were missing, etc. And I don't even like Jazz basses.

I use two truss rods in my necks. Sometimes I have to increase the relief lightly on the low side. I haven't see dead spots on the low E. Usually it's around the 7th fret on the G string. I put carbon graphite rods in my necks to stop that from happening... and I also have phenolic fingerboards on my basses. Not a single dead or uneven note anywhere!

My experience with brand new Fenders is that the fretwork is often bad. You might have an uneven fret which is being exasperated by the straight neck. I had one customer that wanted the lowest possible action on his brand new US Strat. Leveling the frets was an improvement, but not enough for him, so I ended up removing all the frets and leveling the fingerboard, which was not flat at all. I got the strings so low he wanted me to raise them up a bit! The bass necks are hit-or-miss. I've seen some good ones, and some really bad ones too.

Does raising the string stop the dead note? Raise it up some ridiculous amount and see. If that fixes it, check for uneven frets. If the frets aren't too bad, try adding a smige of relief.

I had the same problem with RS during the 70's. It pissed me off as they cost a bunch more a set back them and the QC was bad. Sound City and Picatto! I haven't heard those names for quite a few years but have used them both. Sounds like we were both pioneers in the roundwound world Did you ever "boil" a set cause you were short on cash? I've always loved the sound and feel of the Swingbass sets since the first time I used them. They have been my main string for 30 + years. I tried some DR's that were ok but the Elixr's didn't cut it for me.

It's sad that a US made Fender is just not the real deal anymore. I was a dealer for Fender in the pre CBS and post CBS days. I know that Fender was aware of the dead spot thing. Before CBS took over I toured the factory and they would check the guitars out during final setup and if a dead sopt turned up, they would try a different neck till they got it right. I toured later after CBS and they didn't care what they sent out. CBS was all about mass production.

I will say that the local GC here will let me bring in my own axe to try out an amp if I want to. It's a good thing they have a liberal return policy. You WILL need to use it. I've always been a firm believer that you should get a pro setup on any guitar you buy now, new or used before gigging with the thing. I do all the minor setup and maint. stuff myself but leave the major stuff to guys who do it daily.

I'm going to try everybody's suggestions tonight and see what happens.

BTW Jumping off topic here but what do think of the PLEK machine? I see it as a step in the right direction for mass production. For custom guitars I think the "by hand" thing from a real player is what you pay for and what you expect.

[David Schwab]

I had the same problem with RS during the 70's. It pissed me off as they cost a bunch more a set back them and the QC was bad. Sound City and Picatto! I haven't heard those names for quite a few years but have used them both. Sounds like we were both pioneers in the roundwound world Did you ever "boil" a set cause you were short on cash? I've always loved the sound and feel of the Swingbass sets since the first time I used them. They have been my main string for 30 + years. I tried some DR's that were ok but the Elixr's didn't cut it for me.

Yeah... I was using roundwounds before they were very common. I mean even my Ric came with flats! Those were real nice flats though... Maximas. But blame it on Entwistle and Squire! Ironically My Generation was a set of LaBella nylon tape wounds! I used those too.. both the LaBellas and Rotosounds. Rotos were expensive back then and I had to go to a certain store to find them!

I used to try and change them once a month... I have boiled a bunch of sets! They get bright again, but sound more hollow.

After I got tired of the Rotos eating my frets, I switched to GHS Boomers for a while. Then I went "retro" and put flats on all my basses. That included replacing my GK 800RB with a Mesa 400+ tube amp.

When I got back into round wounds I started using Ken Smith strings. Those are very good, but they became hard to find. When I was at his factory he had cases of them stacked up in his office.

I never tried Elixrs. I used DR's a few times when they first came out, and they were hit-or-miss. I've been meaning to try them again. I've been using D'Addario XL's for years now. I recently tried some 5 string Boomers and hated them so much I took them off the next day! The 6 month old XL's sounded brighter and the Boomers had the worst low B string.

I'm playing on a set of Rotos again... first time in many years. I may pickup some Dunlop strings... they got a good write up in Bass Player.

BTW Jumping off topic here but what do think of the PLEK machine? I see it as a step in the right direction for mass production. For custom guitars I think the "by hand" thing from a real player is what you pay for and what you expect.

It looks really cool. I've not seen one in person, but I like the idea. There was a guy here in NJ that used to use a rig he built similar to the PLEK with laser levels and stuff. That was back in the mid 90's.

[cwmont]

The Results

Got home tonight and tried the door jamb thing first. It made a difference but not to any great extent. Next thing, tried the E string strung through bridge instead of body. Still not very punchy so I put on a new string.

There was a noticeable difference right off the bat. The A note was starting to regain some punch and sustain was improved. So we had a weak E string. I also tried some small C clamps on the headstock to add a little mass. Again some improvement. Starting to sound not too bad but still not what I'm used to from a P bass. Just for S&G, I clamped a small vice grip to the bridge and it made a big improvement. The A note was fairly balanced after that. I'm thinking a Badass III bridge might be worthwhile on this particular bass just to get some more mass there.

One thing of importance to note here.

I was using my SVT CL with the P and noticed I had the gain set pretty low as I had my Schecter C4 active in it the day before. I cranked the gain up quite a bit more and the bass sounds much better now. It has the P bass growl and even though the A note is still a little weak, it probably wouldn't be noticed when gigging with a full band, so I can live with it.


I've never owned an Ash body / maple neck P bass before so I'm not used to the sound. This is a really upper mid sounding bass, very bright. My Alder body / Rosewood P's have a darker warmer sound that sounds fuller to me. Maybe a pickup change is in order to warm up the bass somewhat. Sill undecdided as to wether or not to keep it. I prefer the darker warmer sound of the Rosewood neck. I think I'll try a badass III and a new pickup and then decide.

Next question? Any suggestions as to pickups? One that will darken up a bright sounding bass?

Thanks again to everyone for all your help

[David Schwab]

Any suggestions as to pickups? One that will darken up a bright sounding bass?

Get a deep voiced Bartolini. That will do it.