Acoustic Gtr Q's.. on here?

[Sea Chief]

Hi over here.

Mods is this a good place to ask about my acoustic? Id prefer here, than as a newbie on a acoustic gtr site, as I trust here so much.

Thanks, SC

[stokes]

Its a guitar tech forum, your acoustic is a guitar.Go ahead and ask.

[Sea Chief]

Its a guitar tech forum, your acoustic is a guitar.Go ahead and ask.

Hi stokes ok thanks.

I recently bought a 79 taiwan yamaha sj180 & it has a high action. And fairly flat intonation across the strings. Huge potential guitar.. has a great tone, but guitar is compromised. I would love to get it decent.

So I shaped a new plastic saddle blank, both as low as I could, & 45* angled front. Plus to get the saddle in the bridge, I needed to file away 1mm min from front. Now the intonation is just about good. Still a mite flat but ok.

The height is almost as bad as it was, oddly taking the saddle down a good 3 to 4 mm, has barely affected the high action. There is some irritating saddle buzzing now. Hmm. So I filed down each string hole more, so they exit their peg holes a bit lower. A tiny bit better.

A huge ammount of work this was, for me, cracking one saddle the first try. The neck, which these old yamahas are prone to need resetting, has no evidence it has pulled up/ nothing suggesting its at fault. The bridge, has the ( i believe usual) slight belly upward general curve. It looks similar to my taylor here.. so I think this isn't at fault either. The truss rod doesn't seem to move if I lefty-loosen it a 1/4 turn. Its almost dead straight, maybe 0.5mm relief. But if I added more, if I could, the action would be even worse.

But should acoustics have a very shallow slight upward curve, the bridge on it's " crest " as it were? Or should the top be dead flat?

Thanks, SC

[Chuck H]

All guitars in our genre exhibit a radiused finger board with the exception of classical. nylon string guitars. The radius necessitates a crowned saddle profile. And, in fact, it must be adjusted for the instrument and player. This is a HUGE task that should be done with experience. Hence "luthiers". I'm pretty damn good at adjusting my own instruments but I'm also certain that I'm no better, even for my own tastes and purposes, than a qualified luthier who is given the right information about the instrument, player and any other circumstances.

I mention it in this way because I remember a guitar I had in my earlier years that was never quite right regardless of ample study, work and adjustments on my part. I finally took it to a qualified luthier and it was finally "right". I had done everything I could learn about and consider to get it right and still missed the mark. I'm a bit better now, but I still wouldn't hesitate to bring a special guitar that "I" couldn't get to respond to a properly qualified luthier. There's a reason they do what they do and YOU don't.

I must admit that I've been in the company of some very skilled luthiers. I could even name drop and it's probable that some guys here would recognize the names. That said,.. Even when trusting to a decent guitar shops service tech for instrument set up and adjustment I've rarely been disappointed. Maybe a little tweak here or there but the heavy lifting was done right.

If you don't have a handle on why your saddle is crowned then you really have no business complaining about failed setup and action. Seriously. I know you always argue that you don't have access to a proper guitar or amp tech, but B.S. We all choose our priorities. Unless FAILURE is one of yours I'm pretty sure you could find people to get your amps and instruments working properly. If this was the actual priority. It's not a race. Budgeting can take time and sacrifice. But it's still just prioritizing. How much effort and monies in failed attempts are enough? Get it fixed and pay it off.

JM2C.

[Sea Chief]

Chuck H Hi Chuck. I think you're making the incorrect assumption I don't know why my saddle is crowned ( also as to why my fingerboard has a curved radius). I do know this.

I have shaped the new saddle curve, pretty well, & actually this is not so critical ( certainly not as much the nut curve is).

My question at the end, one question to start with, is about the top. If the top bellys up... you have major issues/ guitar effectively a write-off ( in my £160 eg I mean... certainly not should a taylor or gibson do do). Mine doesn't show me that it has done so. But it still has a gentle curve.

The top slight upward curve is what Im asking about to start with. I want to establish you see why my action is so high.. because nothing stands out as being faulty: neck has no signs its needing resetting, & dead straight not huge backbow, the saddle isn't some huge high wrong thing put in there.. & the top doesn't seem to be incorrectly belly-up bloated raising the bridge too high: but: as the top has a slight upward curve, I wonder firstly what is " normal " with regard to this top curve profile. My Taylor has a similar top curve. My takamine too.

Is there some possible indication the top has become slightly too much curved, some signal maybe. A rhetorical Q. Because this seems the logical first place to look at, if my neck set in the body seems to checkout ok.

Thanks, SC

[Sea Chief]

Chuck H Chuck don't worry & thanks for your help to reply.. yes Ideally take it to a luthier/ but i have none for hundreds of miles hence the diy approach is my only option. Or figure it out first.

I think best I ask on a dedicated acoustic site. Can hassle them instead!

I'll leave you with a tune instead. Appropriately "I figured You Out". As I know your music taste is so good ( i added another VWilliams gem for you btw).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhLxyFJhKbw

Thanks, SC

[Chuck H]

The height is almost as bad as it was, oddly taking the saddle down a good 3 to 4 mm, has barely affected the high action. There is some irritating saddle buzzing now.

This only makes sense if the saddle isn't seating firmly to the bottom of it's slot. Getting the bottom of the saddle dead flat can be difficult working by hand, tending to have more material removal at either end. And then once you realize this and DO get it flat you may find that you've removed too much. And now you need another saddle to start over. And now you have to radius it yourself adding another complication. Trying to adjust break point angle by removing material from the guitar bridge holes shouldn't be necessary on any well made guitar. And Yamaha's are typically well made. If the saddle height seems to need to be so low that break point angle needs adjustment then it's more likely something else is wrong like too much relief in the neck as a result of warp, improper truss rod adjustment or excessive string tension.

Early on, for me, it was not uncommon that I'd go through three or more nuts or saddles before getting one right. Having to learn the several amateur mistakes and how to avoid them in the process. There is definitely nuance getting a saddle adjusted for proper intonation and string height at bass and treble ends as preferred by the player while also suiting the capabilities of the instrument. And it requires that other adjustments like nut height and truss rod/neck relief have been done correctly first.

I really don't recommend amateur lutherie for acoustic guitars mostly because the saddle is permanently adjusted and there's no going back. You have to start over with a new part. Most electric guitars have adjustable bridges and that makes mistakes correctable. Not so with acoustic guitars and m own experience is that the learning curve is very time consuming and expensive and then it takes even more time and practice before getting ideal, rather than just acceptable results.

I haven't looked recently but there are probably a lot of tutorials on line that might help.

[Sea Chief]

This only makes sense if the saddle isn't seating firmly to the bottom of it's slot. Getting the bottom of the saddle dead flat can be difficult working by hand, tending to have more material removal at either end. And then once you realize this and DO get it flat you may find that you've removed too much. And now you need another saddle to start over. And now you have to radius it yourself adding another complication. Trying to adjust break point angle by removing material from the guitar bridge holes shouldn't be necessary on any well made guitar. And Yamaha's are typically well made. If the saddle height seems to need to be so low that break point angle needs adjustment then it's more likely something else is wrong like too much relief in the neck as a result of warp, improper truss rod adjustment or excessive string tension.

Early on, for me, it was not uncommon that I'd go through three or more nuts or saddles before getting one right. Having to learn the several amateur mistakes and how to avoid them in the process. There is definitely nuance getting a saddle adjusted for proper intonation and string height at bass and treble ends as preferred by the player while also suiting the capabilities of the instrument. And it requires that other adjustments like nut height and truss rod/neck relief have been done correctly first.

I really don't recommend amateur lutherie for acoustic guitars mostly because the saddle is permanently adjusted and there's no going back. You have to start over with a new part. Most electric guitars have adjustable bridges and that makes mistakes correctable. Not so with acoustic guitars and m own experience is that the learning curve is very time consuming and expensive and then it takes even more time and practice before getting ideal, rather than just acceptable results.

I haven't looked recently but there are probably a lot of tutorials on line that might help.

That's really useful info Chuck, pretty much all of it. It's odd, there's no excessive relief ( I've barely half a mm on low string, maybe best part of one mm on top string: ideal electric gtr relief I'd say ), or -afaict, but this part seems the most vague with regard to what is deemed ' correct '- I seem to have no excessive bridge height due to excessive string tension ( tension seems perfectly normal) or excessive belly'ing-up of the whole top, plywood being surely stronger & stiffer so less susceptible to this facet (admittedly that seems simply logical to say to me).

Hence my only avenue is to redo the saddle, but far more work than I'd anticipated/ tricky. I have no choice but amateur luthier it, its not an expensive guitar, & i cannot warrant £200 on it at a luthier, or afford it. My 1st go at a saddle shaping aint so bad too!

Another odd thing is the compensated saddle thing. I just dont get it. I cannot see why, if the b string is what just a semitone different/ off kilter to the others, why such a big compensation arrangement happens on most (it seems most are, my taylor is) acoustics saddles. Doesn't make any sense to me. In fact it seems plain daft. Furthermore, having shaped my saddle all along at a 45* angle trying to lessen the string lengths as much as possible ( all a tad flat).. & all, including the b string exactly as the others, are much better as a result of my work. So amateur work it may be.. but my efforts have improved it.

But I just can't understand why my action is still high. Its not silly high, its at the very max you'd ever accept on a just-playable guitar, but ideally needs 2mm down at the 12th fret, a tad more relief (but truss rod just wont let me), & another saddle laboriously shaped taking most of another sunday. Urgh.

Here's a pic anyway.

[Sea Chief]

Bear in mind this still-high action is after Ive taken the saddle down to a now ridiculously-low level, never known a saddle with top E 1.5mm above the bridge. sC

[Helmholtz]

If nut and relief are low enough, the most likely explanation is a raised (bowed up ) top, maybe caused by high humidity storage.
Can't think of a simple cure.
Take the guitar to a competent luthier, who might be able to reset the neck.

[Chuck H]

Usually a bowed up top is visibly detectable. The few I've seen all had the bridge clearly tilted forward and there was visible bulging of the sound board (top). Some guitars look a tiny bit bulgy and are fine. But the ones I've seen that are bad enough that the action height cannot be compensated at the saddle were very clearly distorted.

FWIW I'd say your neck relief is fine. You shouldn't need more than you have and increasing relief will only make the action worse.

And I'm afraid Helmholtz is right. If it's a bowed up top then the work is quite simply beyond what an amateur can do. And almost certainly more costly than the value of the guitar. You could always raise the action, tune it to chords and dedicate it to slide playing.

[Sea Chief]

If nut and relief are low enough, the most likely explanation is a raised (bowed up ) top, maybe caused by high humidity storage.
Can't think of a simple cure.
Take the guitar to a competent luthier, who might be able to reset the neck.

Hi HH. Do you mean reset the neck, although the neck shows no signs of being at fault/ in need of a reset, in order to set it slightly " wrong " in order to negate work on the top which would likely be a far bigger job-?


Its odd both the top & neck show no signs of any fault. This is why I was firstly asking about an acoustic guitar's top. In my opening post. You see all 3 of my acoustics have a similar curve to the top. The yamaha does not have more of a curve than my other two, so far as my eyes can tell.

So it sort of remains a mystery what is going on.

Thanks, SC

[Sea Chief]

Usually a bowed up top is visibly detectable. The few I've seen all had the bridge clearly tilted forward and there was visible bulging of the sound board (top). Some guitars look a tiny bit bulgy and are fine. But the ones I've seen that are bad enough that the action height cannot be compensated at the saddle were very clearly distorted.

FWIW I'd say your neck relief is fine. You shouldn't need more than you have and increasing relief will only make the action worse.

And I'm afraid Helmholtz is right. If it's a bowed up top then the work is quite simply beyond what an amateur can do. And almost certainly more costly than the value of the guitar. You could always raise the action, tune it to chords and dedicate it to slide playing.

Yup this is what I expect to see, if, my top has an issue. Some bulging, anything at all suggesting it has changed. It just doesn't show any such signs you see.

My neck relief is fine on paper/ & perfect for a tip top guitar... but innevitably there's a fraction of higher area on the top fretboard area, at the body join ( a common thing on lesser guitsrs as you know) which needs me to add a tad more relief, to minimise the impact of this. It just results in buzzing notes generally up here. Nothing bad. Just irritating.

Bear in mind my action is 'fine' in your opinion -after- Ive lowered the saddle height, on this blank with my work, by a good 3-4mm compared to the old one.

So if a typically high saddle was in... you'd not say the action was fine. It was pretty much unplayable. And I should have returned it. But I thought I could put in a new nut ( easy) AND just refashion a saddle to be lower: far harder than Id anticipated. I need to buy a bone blank & start again.

Thanks SC

[Helmholtz]

Hi HH. Do you mean reset the neck, although the neck shows no signs of being at fault/ in need of a reset, in order to set it slightly " wrong " in order to negate work on the top which would likely be a far bigger job-?

Its odd both the top & neck show no signs of any fault. This is why I was firstly asking about an acoustic guitar's top. In my opening post. You see all 3 of my acoustics have a similar curve to the top. The yamaha does not have more of a curve than my other two, so far as my eyes can tell.

Yes, a neck reset might compensate for a raised top (even though the neck never slipped).

Use a straight edge on the top to see if it's bowed up.

[Sea Chief]

Yes, a neck reset might compensate for a raised top (even though the neck never slipped).

Use a straight edge on the top to see if it's bowed up.

Yes I have put a straight edge on, but without knowing what it originally was, Ive no way of knowing if the top has raised.

Fwiw putting a straight edge on hits the same spot on the bridge as my taylor, maybe 1mm, or 2mm at most lower on the bridge.

Again there is nothing suggesting, so far as visual inspecting it goes, that the top has raised.

Thanks. sC